Persona 5- Spoiler Zone

I want the Ryuji romance option so bad. Also, I don't mind the sympathy given to Okumura nearly as much as I do with Akechi. He was a bad parent, and a bad person but he was Haru's dad. For a lot of people, that's really hard to get over. That isn't universal, but I get it.

Oh so Chihaya's seiyuu died months before the game? That really sucks, but also, man, there's a more than zero chance that we'll never see Chihaya in any form again isn't there?

edited 22nd Jul '17 3:06:31 AM by mrsunshinesprinkles

Yeah, I feel bad more for the circumstances than I do Okumaru himself. He's still a Corrupt Corporate Executive who had lives sabotaged. Plus everything about his treatment of Haru. I am curious as to what his cognition of her was, given what more it could reveal. Going off of his treatment of her as only bait, though, screw him.

...I wonder what Sae's cognition of Makoto was like. Or Futaba's of Sojiro. I wish we met more of those. Thinking about it, it might have been cool if all the minibosses were more powerful cognitions of those around the person, thus explaining why those cognitions are more powerful. It would be an organic way to introduce learn more about the target.

The thing that's supposed to be sad about Okumura isn't that he paid for his crimes, it's that he wasn't able to redeem himself. The Phantom Thieves had successfully changed his heart — he was presumably going to turn his business around, repair his relationship with Haru, blow the lid on Shido, and generally do everything he could to fix his mistakes.

He never got the chance. Instead of any of that, he was murdered to keep him quiet. That's what's sad about it.

Yeah. Except he was only gonna do all that because he was brainwashed into doing so.

I kinda see your point, but I'd have been more impressed if he realized he needed to change all on his own (like Sae).

Makoto did have a heart to heart with Sae after they kicked her ass. I assume that helped change Sae and in a way was still brainwashing. Just in a "We aren't getting a souvenir" way.

Uh. That wasn't brainwashing dude.

She didn't even change until the story caught up with itself, which is when she realized "oh shit i had a palace and i'm being a bitch to makoto maybe i should fix that".

Yeah Sae did not have her heart stolen, she realized he issues on her own & fix them herself.

Fact of the matter is Okumura had his heart stolen because he was that horrible of a person & couldn't change himself because he genuinely did not want to. He was a monster.

So his death warrants no pity or sympathy, just disappointment as he wasn't able to do the things he was supposed to do.

edited 22nd Jul '17 3:17:42 PM by slimcoder

Sae had also not been on the path for long either, with a Palace for a few years at best.

Kunikazu on the other hand has pretty much been on this route since he was a child considering his treasure.

So what happens to a palace when the owner sorts their shit out without no heart-stealing? Does it crumble like a Jenga tower or is it inside, kinda lingering, because mental hangups aren't a one-and-done deal?

Not sure.

Part of their plan required Sae's Palace to still be intact, but it's never made clear what happened to it afterwards. I'd assume that, with her having sorted out her issues, the result would more or less be the same as stealing the treause.

Or the palace is gone, because there's no place for them to exist anymore.

I'd kind of like to see, as a spinoff antagonist or future superboss, someone who is not only so thoroughly evil, but so thoroughly comfortable in their evilness (ergo their desires aren't distorted despite being evil because they're okay on every conscious and unconscious level with them) that they're actually immune to the Thieves' powers. Essentially, their heart can't be stolen because they don't have one to begin with. I think it'd be interesting seeing what they'd do if faces with such a person.

I'm not sure how that would work since they'd still have desires. That's what truly is modified. Their use of heart is more...trying to think of the best terminology for it, but it eludes me at the moment.

Really, the only way to actually have such a villain is to make them a persona user. And do more with them than Goro.

If their desires weren't distorted they just wouldn't have a palace I think.

On that topic though some of the mementos targets had distorted enough desires that logically they should have had palaces. Like the parents of Futaba's friend, and that homeless guy who was murdering people.

edited 22nd Jul '17 7:30:33 PM by xanderiskander

You really can make an entire extra game of just the Crew hunting down & entering the Palaces of atrocious colorful human beings.

The last guy, the Casting Couch-using producer, in particular was implied to be AT LEAST as bad as Kamoshida.

I think the game handwaves it in the beginning when they more or less say that the bosses of mementos are that strong because they're close to having a palace but aren't quite there yet

alternatively, there is no palace because their desires aren't distorted from any object that can be stolen (like kamoshida's medal)

If that's the case then why does Sae have a Palace? She hasn't actually done anything (yet), and there are some Mementos villains who are a fair bit worse than her.

Futaba didn't do anything bad either. So that's not really a requirement.

Actually Futaba didn't have an object as her treasure either. Futaba herself was the treasure in that case.

edited 22nd Jul '17 7:48:06 PM by xanderiskander

Futubas despair was destroying herself, while Sae became more antagonistic and cold to her sister and a need to win cases no matter what. Just like her male coworkers. Her Palace is clearly her starting down that path but not yet gone beyond saving with words.

Like her willigness to a fair fight once her continued attempts to sabotage all fail.

Honestly I was never really clear on what "distorted" meant in terms of generating a palace. Distorted from what? From its original intentions? So wanting to be a mass murderer is cool as long as that's what you wanted in the first place? From society's expectations? That's obviously a no-go, given that the Phantom Thieves are all about rebelling against society's unfair expectations.

Well you could try to break it down. Distorted desires means that their base desire was there, just warped into the gross personality a palace-owner holds.

Kamoshida, for instance: the object of his distorted desires was the gold medal he won for Japan. This somehow led to him being a horrific minor-abuser and all around horrible person. The fact that these were distorted desires means that they're at least a shadow (hehe) of his true desires.

I think it sorta starts becoming a bit cluttered as to what that was. Assuming that Treasures don't immediately make a palace within somebody, then the gold medal represents Kamoshida's true desire: to be respected. I mean, what more respect can there be than someone who brings home the gold for their country? Of course, given the theme of the game, he would've faded into obscurity as the general populace just sorta stopped caring, thereby causing Kamoshida to lose the respect he craved. That led to him forcing himself onto the student body of Shujin Academy, thus allowing his palace to be made.

At least, that's what makes sense to me. TL;DR, for a palace to be made, a desire needs to be so distorted that the individual is taking drastic measures to ensure they have it - abuse, plagiarism, theft, etc.

That was probably too many words to reach to a simple conclusion, but I just like talking about things.

edited 22nd Jul '17 8:30:35 PM by TruthHurts22

Their sins clearly. All humans naturally sin and this can lead them to try to better themselves or drown in the sea of desire born of said sin. It's clear when Yaldabaoth talks about desire and uses said desire in his boss battle as the sin themed skills.

As said above it was Kamoshida and his lust to be remembered and fulfill the expectations of around him, which eventually devolved into a sexually abusive asshole.

So what would Futaba's and Sae's sins be? I know the cognitive version of Wakaba was representing Wrath, and Sae being Leviathan meant she was supposed to be envy, but that how well is that reflected in the narrative?

Futaba was inward-directed Wrath i.e. self-loathing and suicidal fantasies.