Needs Help: The Heavy

Alright, take 2.

I made this repair shop before, knowing something was wrong with this trope. Problem was that I couldn't pinpoint it exactly. But know, I've realized what is wrong.

We seem to have two definitions of The Heavy here: villain who is taking the most direct action in the story and in the most conflict with the protagonists, and the villain who has the most influence over the plot as a whole, whether directly or indirectly.

To show you what I'm talking about, lets look at two versions of the same series: Fullmetal Alchemist. First, lets look at entry for the manga:

• Fullmetal Alchemist has Father whose actions to absorb God, not only founded Amestris, but the main characters along with most of the cast would've never been born if he hadn't done so.

Just so you know, Father himself does not directly put himself on the battlefield until the finale. Now lets look and the 2003 anime entry:

• The 2003 anime Fullmetal Alchemist gives us Envy, who actually fights much more often than Dante. Not only does he do her bidding, he actually manages to kill Ed.

Also just so you know, Envy (at least in this series) does not have that much meta plot and backstory influence. In other words, these entries are opposites of each other.

It's kind of a problem since those two definitions, while they can overlap, can also be at two opposite sides of the spectrum. We should pick one or the other. The description implies the former definition, but many people are putting down examples the belong to the latter definition. There needs to be a solution here, but I don't have one at the moment, so I need help.

Opening thread for discussion. Seems the options here are split, pick a definition, or just keep it the nebulous both it is now. It is one of those cases where it might just be that tropers can't really tell the difference between the distinction. There's a lot of fuzzy in there.

edited 1st Jan '16 2:06:48 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I like the first one because it's more distinct from Big Bad.

Best example I can think of is Darth Vader. He's directly getting in the way of the protagonists, but the real Big Bads are Tarkin and the Emperor.

edited 1st Jan '16 2:11:19 PM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Yes, that is the distinction. Going back to the actor's slang that is the root of "Heavy", the heavy has a lot of lines (or has action described a lot in the script). Sometimes, albeit rarely, he also serves as the primary, (first and final) antagonist. Meaning he is sometimes the Big Bad.

I'd say that a Big Bad is more distinct than a Heavy, in that a Big Bad must be the true instigator. A heavy need not be. He might be The Dragon, or just a particularly bothersome Mook, really. "Heavy" is the supertrope, only a little more distinct than Antagonist. Big Bad is the subtrope, more narrowly defined.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

Yeah, The Heavy is basically the villain who interacts with the heroes the most and the audience sees the most. His presence is felt heavily on the plot, hehe.

For example Vader isn't the Big Bad of Star Wars but he is the one who you see the most of and he is the one who has the most contact with the heroes throughout all 3 movies.

IMO a laconic would be 'the staring role on the villain's side in the show'.

edited 1st Jan '16 3:11:38 PM by Memers

I don't see anything that suggests the second definition — if people are including examples based on that, it seems like straight-up misuse to me. The definition is pretty clear that The Heavy is the bad guy that spends the most time directly opposing the protagonists — not necessarily the guy pulling the strings behind the scenes, but the guy who's front and center and in the heroes' faces. This character may or may not be the Big Bad (though if he's not, he's usually The Dragon).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

The Dragon has its own major issues that people keep confusing with Number Two.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Well, one thread, one topic, but you can have a dragon that is not a Number Two. In fact, a Number Two is most often found on the protagonist side of things, rather than the antagonist. Not sure how you could get it confused with The Dragon.

Back on topic: The definition as it stands seems pretty clear. Do we have evidence of misuse? I don't find any among the works I'm familiar with.

edited 1st Jan '16 4:28:23 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

There is plenty of misuse on the page. I just listed an example at the top.

Really there is more misuse with work and character pages linking to the trope page than the trope page itself. But there is still misuse.

Also, not sure why this is starred since we haven't even done anything yet.

edited 4th Jan '16 2:51:33 PM by SatoshiBakura

It was pointed out that of the two usages shown, one should have been The Dragon, a type of The Heavy. I don't think anyone else saw a confusion between the existing definitions of Heavy and Dragon.

The star is probably because no one could see any action to take.

Could you make another attempt, please, to clarify what problem you are seeing?

edited 4th Jan '16 7:16:13 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

I already stated the problem at the top, and it was good enough for a mod to open it. I don't see a reason to repeat myself. It's simple: people are interpreting the definition in different ways.

Look, your OP isn't getting any action. If you are happy with that, we can all move on.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

Edit: The ones on this page are mostly in the anime section, but check the related to pages. For example, check on Characters.Finding Nemo.

And we are notclosing this thread since the others seem to acknowledge the existence of this situation.

edited 4th Jan '16 7:34:39 PM by SatoshiBakura

I'm not sure shima agrees, she can open one without agreeing with he OP.

Please, just state what action you would like to see taken.

Not familiar with that cartoon. If the two citations for The Heavy are not the bad guys having the most lines, they should be cut.

Uh, could you point out the post numbers you think are in support?

edited 4th Jan '16 7:38:14 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

We should just delete examples that fit into "villain with influence on plot" category first of all.

But since the root of problems like these is a faulty description, I'm trying to wonder how to rephrase it to clarify that it means "villain directly involved".

It says those words in the first line. Says antagonist rather than villian, but same-same in this case.

edited 4th Jan '16 7:42:32 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

Well, it says "The Heavy is the antagonist whose direct actions are the primary focus of the storyline." While that can seen as obvious to some people, to others, it may be more ambiguous, especially with the Villains Wiki definition being different from our definition. Some people may see the "actions" part of it meaning that the actual actions themselves are the primary focus, but villain themselves may be Out of Focus. I would settle for at least changing the first sentence to "The villain with the most direct involvement in the storyline" but I'm open for other ideas.

Ah, I think I see where we're disconnecting. The Heavy may indeed be the "villain with influence on plot". When he does, he is The Dragon, a type of The Heavy. A character may be both a heavy and a dragon. In fact, if they may also be a Big Bad.

The Heavy is a broad category. Maybe a redraft stating that, plainly?

edit add: Not sure we can work another wiki's definition into ours.

edited 4th Jan '16 7:52:51 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

Wait. Does this change do it for you?:

is now:

The Heavy is the antagonist whose direct actions are the primary focus of the storyline. This is a big role for an actor, if not the largest role, in a play or movie. The term, which goes back to theater in the 1800s, refers to this player having the most lines and thus the heaviest script.

changes to:

This is a big role for an actor, if not the largest role, in a play or movie. The term, which goes back to theater in the 1800s, refers to this player, an antagonist, having the most lines and thus the heaviest script.

---

Trying to characterize effect on the storyline is making things murky.

edited 4th Jan '16 7:57:55 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

That's a good change. Much clearer.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Wait, you're suggesting that we fix the article by removing the actual definition of the trope? The trope is "the character that provides the majority of the direct opposition to the protagonist". They're the person who the heroes are actually fighting, rather than just the person whose schemes they're trying to foil (though they can actually be the same person). If we don't actually say that anywhere in the article, then that's just going to be a mess.

There does seem to be some misuse in the examples, but the majority of it seems to be as "character who puts the plot into motion" or "character who has the most influence on the plot" instead of "character who most directly opposes the protagonists". The solution would seem to be clarifying what we mean by direct opposition, rather than going with "the bad guy with the most lines".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

But "the bad guy with the most lines" is what the trope is. It's the antagonist with the most (direct/physical) presence in the story.

Check out my fanfiction!

Sorry, but that is all it means. Whether or not those lines were in direct opposition to the heroes (which only applies, btw, to stories with a shallow heroes/villians model) doesn't matter.

Antagonist with the most lines (or described action in the script) is quite clear.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken

"The bad guy who has the most lines" is not a trope. It has no narrative significance. Merely being on screen the most doesn't tell us anything about the character or their role in the story.

"The bad guy who provides the most direct opposition to the good guys" is a trope. It tells you who that character is and what role he plays in the story. He may not be the Big Bad, but he's the one the heroes have to overcome if they're going to continue doing whatever hero stuff it is they're doing.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

You can wish that the term "The Heavy" was used in any number of ways. Off this wiki, it means exacty: an antagonist with a lot of lines. And nothing else.

If you are looking for a term that means something about the "directionality" of an antagonist's opposition — whatever that might mean — you should take it to YKTTW.

edited 19th Jan '16 8:43:49 PM by eyebones

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken