Miraculous Ladybug

Cat Noir, as said, is very powerful, but is held back by the fact that most useful uses of his power would be immoral. Cat Noir can kill anyone he touches, but he simply isn't going to. Also, his power is a direct counter to Ladybug's. If he touches her Lucky Charms, he can destroy them. He can't purify because that isn't what he does. He destroys. He doesn't purify

But the two of them synergise well for fighting Akuma. Before purifying the Akuma, you have to destroy the item it inhabits. Technically Ladybug 'can do it herself, but that doesn't mean Cat Noir isn't useful for that purpose.4

Marinette is clearly the leader here, but that wouldn't necessarily hold for other pairs of Ladybugs and Cat Noir's with different personalities fighting against a completely different threat.

Even if he's limited since he's Bad Luck and Destruction (and I did mention how I understood how the only way he could defeat them is to rot them), they still should represent him as someone who equally stands his ground with the heroine since that's what they are supposed to represent (otherwise, what's the entire point of layering the Miraculous box that way?). Instead he's the joker half of the two most of the time. One can say in two episodes Cat Noir has been useless to Ladybug, but we can't say Ladybug has been useless to Cat Noir. There's a discrepancy here. To emphasize again, I'm not a fan of telling and not showing, and the fact that I'm not the only one who feels that way based on the replies I've gotten means that they've failed to let Cat Noir be seen on his own even playing field. Especially when plot wise and power wise, it shouldn't happen.

There's always been this inherent issue when it comes to female and male teams (anime/manga more so). If the show is aimed towards girls, the guy is turned usually into a buffoon, sidekick, or be not as strong to make the lead female look better. If the show is aimed towards guys, the girl is pretty much almost useless or is a damsel in distress. There can never be a balance.

I was hoping for that change here actually.

Ladybug and the creator can blabber about how they're partners, and how Cat Noir is not a sidekick, etc., but all that is just empty noise with no back up by the actual series. Thus far anyway. They can at least give the boy some other attack.

On the immoral bit, that's more on the character's ethics and sense of practicality. Cat Noir/Adrien can very much kill them, since Ladybug will revert everything back to how it was. I assume that's including the dead. Adrien is a cinnamon roll though and it can't be done due to the demographic, yeah, I get it, lol.

Yeah, Cat Noir doesn't do plans, never finishes off villains and never he's the one who always.ends up captured/brainwashed/erased from time/turned into girl etc. He's one of these characters who would be probably better off if they weren't pretending they're equal to a title character.

Thing is, he's a title character as well xD.

Miraculous: The Tales of Ladybug & Cat Noir.

Honestly, this makes me question the creator's ability in understanding what interdependence means what with sacrificing plot elements to make Cat Noir more of a caricature, but eh.

edited 14th Mar '17 10:06:22 PM by CroixJean

Somehow it's really weird seeing people refer to him as Cat Noir, since I'm so used to Chat Noir as it is in the French dub.

Chat pronounced in the French way sounds like shat

Well, the "t" is mostly implied rather than actually pronounced...

Also, speaking of Cat Noir's status...

Seeing as he can destroy a Pocket Dimension (which is by technicalities, time, space, matter) with his Cataclysm, and that he can will it to be used at whatever range he needs it to be, does he have potential to become a Person of Mass Destruction?

That;s what that scene should mean, yes. In addition, Word of God is that they are a lot more powerful than their season 1 feats imply. So yes, I'd say so.

As for the other comments, yes, Cat Noir is the de facto sidekick regardless of what is otherwise said. Personally though, that doesn't bother me. Sidekicks are pretty normal an how often do we get a female hero with a male sidekick? Personally, I find that t adds to the series's charm. Now, would I be happy for Cat Noir to develop into an equal? Sure! That'd be great! But I on't see the current situation as an actual problem. As I said, Cat Noir isn't the sidekick because his miraculous is less powerful than it's supposed to be. It's because Marinette is a better leader.

I see them as partners. They help each other keep going, and it would be a lot of pressure on Marinette to fight Akumas all the time on her own. He's there to lighten the load.

While Akumas need to be purified and that's not something he can do, it's a unique situation I imagine. Since we know Hawkmoth is unusual in creating Akumas to spread negative thoughts and emotions to retrieve their Miraculouses.

More mundane threats, or fighting other Miraculous-Holders in general wouldn't require such solutions.

Just because Cat needs Ladybug, doesn't mean Ladybug doesn't need Cat. I like personally that someone with less power and a dark one at that can still pull his weight and help.

In Simon Says, Cat Noir really showed his stuff. When he actually gets serious in a fight, watch out.

All the time, lol. especially when you get shoujo magical girl manga/anime...plus video games (think Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, etc.), which this is based of. Or, actually, is. It's the same way with shounen. It seems that to feed the target audience, authors, creators, etc., can't seem to be creative enough where the two genders can be equal in power or at least more of a balanced team. Shoujo is too focused on driving the whole "omg girl power YEAH!" schtick like Miraculous is doing, and shounen tends to downplay the female as obviously less powerful, if she fights at all, and as a means of fanservice. It's just the basic status quo that never changes. And to me, it just increases the whole competitive discourse about which gender is better (which is more prevalent in young children, ironically), when they can instead show that it doesn't matter and both are strong and useful in their own right. It doesn't negate little girls admiring the heroine at all if the guy is shown to be capable. It's a good lesson to take for future relationships.

Avatar: The Last Airbender was the closest to ever getting what equal balance of power actually was. The title character (male, btw) is basically a Physical God, but the females and other characters are no chumps in any way, and are presented as incredibly strong enough to be on par.

And alright, if Cat Noir is simply a sidekick, that would be fine...in any other series. But when you hammer down how they are equal and a team, not only by Marinette in-universe, but by Wordof God, and yet it's a whole lot of nothing [to show for it], I get irritated. This shouldn't even happen in the first place. Their power set, meaning now we are getting into it being a plot point, present them as YIN and YANG.

"The principle of Yin and Yang is a fundamental concept in Chinese philosophy and culture in general dating from the third century BCE or even earlier. This principle is that all things exist as inseparable and contradictory opposites, for example female-male, dark-light and old-young. The two opposites attract and complement each other and, as their symbol illustrates, each side has at its core an element of the other (represented by the small dots). Neither pole is superior to the other and, as an increase in one brings a corresponding decrease in the other, a correct balance between the two poles must be reached in order to achieve harmony."

a.k.a. one cannot exist without the other (but other than having more difficulty in saving the day without Cat Noir, Ladybug can still save it by herself...Cat Noir should be able to do the same and should get a couple of episodes showing it, even if he can't purify it. In fact, it would be good to explore what happens if you destroy the akuma).

At this point, they are basically somewhat contradicting what they had applied.

And of course, the other five Miraculous surrounding them (fox, bee, turtle, peacock, moth/butterfly) represent the Chinese Five Elements-

"Five Element Theory asserts that the world changes according to the five elements' generating or overcoming relationships. Generating and overcoming are the complementary processes — the yin and yang — of Five Element Theory." (which is why Yin and Yang are basically the basis/underlying of these elements and why they're the center and on a higher leveling in the Miraculous box)

-but let's not get there yet.

I would have accepted it better if the whole point wasn't that they are one part of a whole and are equal/balanced. They're blatantly taking the origins from Chinese philosophy. Which is a very interesting, complex, and attractive concept to take from if done well, as you can see.

I'm holding out for changes in Season 2. They're already planning to make it less formulaic, so this is the best time to switch it. I'll take solace in that, while Marinette is The Protagonist and it's focused on her, Adrien's a lot more plot relevant/important to, well, everything, what with his family and connections.

He isn't someone with less power. If Adrien wasn't a Nice Guy, he would have destroyed that yoyo of hers (no Lucky Charm, no World-Healing Wave) and/or would have committed mass destruction since he's capable of apparently destroying time and space. He's also the better combatant/fighter for hand to hand. But the fact that this is your impression speaks for itself on what needs to be fixed.

edited 16th Mar '17 1:39:27 PM by CroixJean

I disagree that any of those were examples of male sidekicks, but I guess that's just a matter of perspective. In any event, I was mainly focusing on the superhero genre (though, admittedly, the show takes even more from the Magical Girl genre).

Now, I understand your irritation with the discrepancy, but IMO, the creator and protagonist being, well, wrong, doesn't make the show of lower quality or less entertaining. IMO, the creator's intent is important, but the final product is what actually matters in the end and nothing the author says changes what the final product is.

Truly we live in equal age. We can have a female heroine, male sidekick....and fandom complaining that he is a Faux Action Boy. Well, he okay he's a little better then that and will get better probably in less-formula-based second season but people do complain.

I wouldn't say sidekick, yeah, but I used those examples because they downgrade the male to the same status Cat Noir is. Merely support and back up as they become static in magic/power.

It doesn't lower the quality or entertainment, since I'm willing to see Season 2 after all (minus the prospect of more Chloe, eek). It's just that when the background of the abilities behind this series is based on Chinese philosophy, it should be illustrated by the wielders. Otherwise, they may as well say they've taken liberties with the idea. Now, it's not that bad, he's shown to be competent, but I expect an extension of Cat Noir's ability bracket to make up for Ladybug's seemingly more substantial one. She's luck based, therefore, using Lucky Charm makes her victory 99.9% certain (I mean, really, Cat Noir can take a break and chill, she can take care of it...), she's capable of purification, and then she can do a World-Healing Wave. Cat Noir has...Cataclysm. Has she even lost yet? I can at least say other magical girls have deeply struggled, and, lost.

And even more importantly, they need to lay off the repetitive captured, tied up, or possessed Cat Noir thing. I don't enjoy when it's done on females, and neither do I enjoy it with him. I think this may be the actual problem, and if they get rid of it, the rest will fall into place. I'm fine with the excuse that he's pretty much reckless and acts rather than thinks, but they can't keep that up forever because one has to expect that he'll develop to be more proficient due to his building experience. I do like how he has self worth issues, especially in Gamer, which sets up how he feels he isn't really needed. He's right.

Let's see if that leads anywhere.

On another topic - with other Miraculous holders coming in, Ladybug's hero outfit seems pretty basic in comparison now o.o. Everyone has pretty nice details added in their suit, even Cat Noir. Some of Astruc's earlier designs with more black (like in the middle, or on gloves, or even legs) were pretty interesting. Wonder why they didn't get a go...

Question: I know we'll never see this in a show since it's a kid's show and all, but if Chat Noir destroyed an akuma's item with Cataclysm, would that destroy the butterfly inside? How would that affect the host? Would it affect the host at all?

Also, if it weren't a kid's show I'm sure Noir would be pretty powerful, seeing as he could just disintegrate akumas rather than having to go through a comparatively rigorous purification process.

Pretty sure he has Cataclysm'd an akuma's item at least once. It just broke like normal.

edited 20th Mar '17 10:15:48 AM by IniuriaTalis

Lame. But again, kid's show.

Unfortunately I think the fact that this show is a kid's show is probably going to leave us with a lot of questions and Fridge Logic as to how power mechanics work because why build up a bunch of lore and mechanics for a kids show amirite? After all, kids are morons!

The way the show has been going, it seems like the lore is going to build up slowly now that the status quo is finally breaking.

The idea that I had about Cat Noir and the butterflies was that if he ever destroyed one, it would hurt Nooroo. Make use of the idea that Hawkmoth's kwami is an innocent victim, and maybe use that as an excuse for Tikki and Plagg to talk to their holders about the other kwami and Miraculouses.

I'm half expecting that they already know each other, or something. I mean, duh of course they must have met before, being parts of Miraculouses and all, but I wonder why Tikki or Plagg don't mention each other at all. Unless Plagg's younger.

edited 20th Mar '17 1:40:37 PM by darkabomination

All I can think is they've promised not to explain more until the time is right or whatever.

Also, I am hoping saving Nooroo will become a priority because poor guy doesn't deserve what he's going through.

edited 20th Mar '17 1:44:58 PM by PhiSat

Another idea I've seen out there is that destroying the Akuma rather than purifying them might not cure the person affected by them or reverse its affects.

I thought it was the Miraculous Ladybug follow up that reverted the akumatized villains back to their original human form. As long as the item is destroyed and the infected darkness of the akuma is gotten rid of, things would return as they were. Though the purifying theory makes sense. It would just need confirmation.

Anyway, it would be weird if they freak out about kids watching an evil, infected butterfly getting turned to dust (and they can actually sugar it up somehow I feel) when Cat Noir verbally remarked his wonder about what happens if he uses Cataclysm on a person. Or even, say, Cat Noir initiating an apocalypse. If kids can watch superhero cartoons and all that comes with it without thinking of the actual dark contents behind it with no problem...

Actually destroying the item changes the person back immediately- Ivan was still himself even while the Akuma butterfly was multiplying. Catching and purifying it prevents it from multiplying.

edited 20th Mar '17 9:48:40 PM by SalFishFin

The fact that Nooroo's power can multiply makes his power extremely... Well, powerful. Imagine how much good he must have been able to do in the past.