The Dub-Is it a different show?

This is not supposed to be a Subbing vs. Dubbing thread.

Anyway, anime often gets dubbed into foreign languages and they don't always work out the right way, for whatever reason.

In the dubbing process changes are made to tone down (sometimes for children, sometimes for other reasons) or westernize what is depicted, or on some occasions, made sillier. But many dubs are also faithful enough to the original scripts.

The point is, is dubbed anime a different show from the Japanese version? If not, when does it become that way? Ghost Stories and 4kids One Piece are defiantly different enough from the originals to be shows on their own, but is it always that way? If not, is there a specific point where it becomes that way?

Just waxing philosophically about anime dubbing.

edited 13th Sep '16 11:48:44 PM by Smasher

Well, this is a complicated matter.

Take Samurai Pizza Cats, for example. It follows the original stories, but much of the dialogue has been rewritten. Can we call it a new show based on that alone? I don't necessarily think so.

I am of the opinion that if one can watch a good dub and be able to talk about the show with someone watching the original with no changes in the conversation save a remark about a few dialogue differences, then they are the same show for all practical matters.

I say good dub to mean in terms of quality of the voice actors and the written material. Bad actors who fail to convey the emotions of the scene will have a different impression on the audience, which will effect how they discuss the show and relate it to others. Written material because even if some dialogue changes, the feel of the scene is still conveyed, and may even be conveyed better when the target audience is taken into consideration.

Ideally, dubbers would be able to perfectly translate an anime in a way that not only made sense grammatically but also perfectly conveyed the meaning of the original script. However, Japanese is a very hard language to translate perfectly into English, as there's lot of wildly different sentence structure, speaking conventions, and even cultural jokes that simply do not translate to English well at all.

That's where the idea of "localization" comes in, where you translate it but in a way that makes sense to English speakers (or speakers of whatever language its translated to). There's always going to be some meaning of the original lost, but most dubbing studios try to keep that to a minimum. Therefore, the dub of say, Azumanga Daioh or Puella Magi Madoka Magica can safely be said to be the same show.

However, when you get into things like name changes, censorship of "problematic" material (like Sailor Moon's infamous lesbians-turned-lesbian cousins), then it starts to go into the realm of being a different show (or a Macekre as these things often turn out). When it comes to examples of Gag Dub like Samurai Pizza Cats or Ghost Stories, then it's definitely a much different show.

edited 18th Sep '15 12:47:57 PM by MoreThanBored

Sometimes, if the anime isn't too serious(and when I say serious I mean series like Cowboy Bebop or Fate/Zero) it sort of cames off as, how I would say, mocking of the genre itself. Like lampshading ridiculous hairstyles or names or the fact the character must have serious mental issues. Death's Note "I couldn't live a word without Light/Yeah, that would be pretty dark" sentence comes to mind.

And you know? That's good. A good work must manage to entertain the people he is being exhibited to. If that comes with some jokes exclusive for region, so be it.

edited 18th Sep '15 1:17:24 PM by MeetTheNewBoss

Watching a dub is like watching a different adaptation of the same source material, the story is generally the same, the character names are (not always) the same and the setting (not always) are the same but the characters and their interaction are interpreted differently.

That's...pretty much completely wrong in most cases of the dub. The interactions are interpreted the same as well, at least by the people in the production.

I don't think that's a hard question.

It becomes a different show when a major change to the plot or theme is made to accommodate the dubbing. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'm sure they're out there. I think it's only stuff like Fist of the North Star, anime that was dubbed way back when, that really suffers this problem, but I don't watch enough to argue.

One Piece had a lot of censorship, I've heard, but the plot and theme is largely the same - pirate crew out to find adventure and treasure and protect their nakama. Sonic X (if that counts) changes the death scene of a character and probably several lines of dialogue, but the plot still follows the original story arcs without major alteration. A major change would be if a character that died in the original version lived in the dubbed version - and that can be disastrous for shows based on manga that are ongoing, so I doubt that happens often. Or if a character who is often angry and cantankerous is, somehow, portrayed as a kind, gentle-voiced person.

Otherwise, the viewer is just making a big deal over a character "feeling" different due to the difference between voices, and that's somewhat understandable, but just because Norio Wakamoto isn't voicing the Emperor of Britannia doesn't mean Code Geass becomes an entirely different show.

edited 18th Sep '15 5:26:13 PM by Soble

Interpretation can only be the same if they're done by the same people.

edited 18th Sep '15 4:04:04 PM by zsmg

I've noticed an ongoing debate (in Anglophone circles) about whether the two voices behind Shinji give different impressions of the character. Megumi Ogata makes him petulant, Spike Spencer sounds as if he's always on the verge of tears. In a character study where no-one is acting rationally, that can make a real difference. Note that NGE is one of the first faithful dubs but still below today's standards.

Changing names and cultural references may still be accepted for children's shows, but even those are expected to not change anything of substance to the story. One reason they could do "macekres" in the eighties was that most television shows were long runners with self-contained episodes that improvised as they went; now we have shorter, more focused and better planned stories. So changes might have continuity repercussions later. (Nor is it an option to make new footage, given the schedule and focus of the studios.)

The exceptions are the likes of Ghost Stories, that are not worth respecting, and screwball comedies like Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt, where respect for the original would be simply misplaced. These have big differences, but for the latter, I would say the core is not changed.

In sum, most dubs today are the same show translated because it's what fans expect. Changes are done best with complete remakes like Power Rangers that have no pretence to being the same show.

Soble, did you even watch 4kids One Piece? And Im not saying this as a fanboy, but not only many characters "Live when they should have died" but also important plot points and arcs are removed and thus its unable to reconcile itself with future events.

I admit early 4kids episodes werent SO AWFUL,(I even sat down and watch and your argument did fit the bill way back when) but its no exaggeration to say 4kids One Piece is a completely different show. And fuck that Nakama word, not you, that word.

Well no, I didn't, I used to watch it up until about the Don Krieg/Arlong bits and got sick of the voices. So One Piece might be a example, still, I can't say they changed so much, outside of filler. Did they change the story to the point where it was irreconcilable with the manga? Is the 4kids dub still going or did Funimation take over?

False.

You can tell the actors what they are supposed to do and what their supposed motivations in any particular scene are. There are numerous instances of stage directors who include highly detailed script directions precisely so that everyone does the play the same way. In television or movies, it's called a "shot for shot remake".

Numerous dubs have operated under equivalent rules with the translation and instructions to the actors being intentionally controlled to match the original scenes.

For an example, considering Gundam 0083. The Zeon cast are viewed very differently by Western audiences, but it's not because their interpretation in the work was changed; it remained the same. Delaz and Gato are good samurai. This won them sympathy in Japan. Cima is not; she is disliked as a result, despite trying to do the right thing. Western audiences do not connect with them the same way, because their portrayal was in no way changed for us and we interpret their behavior very differently under our takes on morality and duty.

edited 18th Sep '15 5:47:49 PM by Night

You are right on the money, up till Krieg there are no major alterations...then the Arlong arc came. And then they skipped Laboon, Little Garden... And now Funimation took over with a fully accurate dub.

edited 18th Sep '15 6:13:45 PM by AegisP

Of course, One Piece has nearly 800 episodes, so Funi doesn't have time to go back and do them all, especially now that they've started doing dubs shortly after the original aired in Japan. (Which is probably why some older shows with second seasons hasn't been dubbed yet.)

edited 18th Sep '15 6:40:58 PM by Smasher

What are you talking about? They already went and redubbed most of the old episodes and now they are at Impel Down. Sure it took a while, but they made a point out of starting from scratch.

There's still hundreds more episodes to go, though.

And they don't broadcast dub the current episodes? Given that they hate fansubs I'd figure they'd do that.

They covered all that 4Kids did, though, which was the point of discussion.

I've never heard Spike Spencer Shinji but I am told that he may have been one of the contributing factors for the western fanbase's dislike of him and that people who watch the show subbed with Megumi Ogata tend to find him less grating.

There are simulcasts. And besides Funimation is doing whatever they can for One Piece.

edited 18th Sep '15 7:38:08 PM by AegisP

Exactly, and is the person, who tells the actors what they are supposed to do and what the motivations are, the same person in both versions? The answer to that is no. Therefore it's a different interpretation.

Your comparison with stage plays doesn't apply because the scripts don't have super detailed directing instructions nor is there some sort of single lead director and every voice dubber director follows his instructions.

A shot-for-shot remake is a visual imitation but the acting and the character interaction is still an interpretation unless the same director is involved and he gives out the exact same instructions to the actors.

My statements, a dub is like watching a different adaptation of the same source material, is completely true but there's nothing wrong with that.

edited 20th Sep '15 5:57:54 AM by zsmg

All these paragraphs to answer a simple question when a single sentence would do just fine: "Most of the time, no."

Talking about the way a thing is said rather than what is said rarely helps a discussion.

But it's a simple answer to a simple question: a dub of a show is still the same show, just in English. Unless you wanna talk about exceptions like gag dubs and dubs edited for kids TV, I fail to understand how there can even really be a discussion, or at the every least, why the responses are so lengthy. It's like asking if a sweet potato is still a vegetable even though it's sweet. It doesn't require a small term paper to say, "Yes, it is, because it's still a potato." There's really nothing else to talk about after that.

edited 20th Sep '15 11:25:04 PM by PhysicalStamina

Often the best answer is a more interesting question.