Netflix Daredevil

Eh, aside that first episode, I thought they handled Karen rather well. She was the protagonist of her own story, something I wouldn't say Foggy was.

And yet "Nelson vs Murdock" was one of my favourite episodes. It was a wonderful examination about why secret identities are actually very questionable. Karen had her own arc so to speak, but she often felt disconnected to me. In the end...did all her digging even reveal something useful? She found out about Fisk's past, but that wasn't what did him in, was it?

I loved this episode, but I also loved Karen's arc. I really liked seeing her keeping going, fighting the best way she could, even if it wasn't much. It made an interesting contrast to Matt. Both were fairly heroic characters in their own way.

You are going to hold her lack of effectiveness against her, you might as well also say Matt himself wasn't very effective. The main factor for Fisk downfall was Owsley, not Daredevil. Ultimately, though, I think it was actually Fisk himself, who became more and more sloppy as the series progressed, making more mistake as he kept being thrown off balance. Karen was part of that. The revelation about his mom and Wesley's death made Fisk even more vulnerable just as things were going south fast.

Sure, Karen wasn't the most important character in that regard, but she was a cog in the machine that brought Fisk down. Ultimately, though, I just really enjoying seeing her character progressing as she fought her fears and battled against something much bigger than her with little hesitation.

Karen also fulfilled a important function with the killing of Wesley which caused Fisk's downwards spiral into complete insanity, which led to Owsley's death, which kickstarted the whole thing...

Concurred. No single character brought down Fisk. It was several factors together which ensured the collapse of the Kingpin's first empire.

Good point. Still, when she was all sad because the "team" got broken up I was all "Wait a minute, when exactly where you some sort of team?"

Fairly sure she was talking more of the camaraderie that Matt and Foggy had between the two of them, which kind of got shattered for a bit after "Nelson v. Murdock."

I thought so first too, but the more they talked about it, it felt like they were pushing the idea that those three are this big team which are supposed to be together no matter what, and it didn't feel like they had earned that label yet.

"I wonder if there isn't some kind of Game of Thrones effect recently" My brother did specifically mention Game of Thrones in his reasoning for why Karen should've died. As though the only way to get an emotional response from viewers is to kill their third-favourite character every couple episodes. He said that the story needed that "big emotional beat." Because Karen killing Wesley and Fisk killing Ben weren't enough.

I think he might have forgotten that, dark as it was, this was still a superhero show. There's still supposed to be a sense of optimism in it. Game of Thrones isn't meant to be optimistic, because it's about assholes trying to fuck each other over to get a throne. It's political intrigue with boobs, dragons and crushed skulls. Daredevil is a morality tale about a superhero taking down a supervillain. There was no need for a gut-punch on the level of what Game of Thrones would do, because they are two completely different shows with completely different tones and purposes.

So my brother's an idiot.

You can't apply game of thrones logic to every show for (among several other reasons) a simple factor: Game of Thrones has a main cast of about 30 people per season, give or take and a secondary cast that's without end. It's a show that can afford to kill anyone it sees fit by virtue of there being enough characters to crew a warship, so it either replace the characters with new ones or just distribute focus to the remaining protagonists without making the plot lose momentum or charisma.

Daredevil precisely 3 people as the main heroes. They can't afford to go out killing a main character every time they just feel like shock value.

Agreed. A show with Loads and Loads of Characters has a lot more leeway when it comes to killing off individual characters. Kill off Karen Page, and the show loses a larger percentage of the leads then Game of Thrones lost at the Red Wedding, and 100% of the female characters who appear in every episode.

edited 3rd May '15 4:48:40 PM by Falrinn

Yeah. Not to mention that, a thing that a lot of people don't realize is that most of of GoT's deaths are of decoy main characters (or the staight up supporting characters). Sure, important people are killed off, but the actual heroes of the story continue on, despite multiple fake outs. To be fair, this is more evident on the books, where the main characters actually have chapters named after them^note only 2 or 3 of these characters died over the 5 books, and one of them sorta came back anyway.

Phil Urich's death was actually a lot GoT like in that regard. Clearly a very important character of his own subarc. But he wasn't actually the protagonist of said arc. That was Karen, who survived, despite coming really close not to near the end.

edited 3rd May '15 6:20:48 PM by Heatth

It was a nice Bait-and-Switch really, considering their current comic book incarnations.

Though making Phil black might bite them in the ass a little.

After watching Daredevil for nearly a whole month, I finally finished it and, I have to say, this might actually be my favorite work in the whole MCU. The writing, the story, the atmosphere, the directing, the characters, and especially the acting was all top-notch, and it all came together to make an amazing whole. I recall another poster saying something from way back about wanting Superhero movies to be more intimate and mature, and while I don't think all Superhero adaptions need to follow that to the letter, this one certainly does, and it's a winner.

Now to go back and finish up the Frank Miller run...

You mean Ben? Phil Urich is a different character.

Speaking of which, now that they have access to Spider-Man and thus there's little copyright issue to speak of, I wonder if Phil might be showing up in the future.

It'd be interesting if one of the ways Daredevil connects to the Spider-Man mythos is though Phil.

edited 4th May '15 12:51:23 AM by KnownUnknown

Technically Marvel owns the TV rights for Spider-man, so they don't even need Sony's permission to do whatever they want with him. He is just not a really good character for a TV adaptation outside of animation. The CGI and Stunt necessary to make him look good are too expensive.

So, is it just me or do our pages vilify Vanessa more than she does in the show? I perused the pages before I finished the show and I figured she had to have done something majorly evil in the show, like aim Fisk at her enemies or something, or do something hands-on evil. But the worst she does is... sorta comfort Fisk and her negative influence is basically by being something for him to protect.

I mean, come on. Lady Macbeth? She's not put-off by Fisk's criminal tendencies, but she's also most certainly not responsible for them.

I agree. Her role in encouraging him to criminal acts is significantly overstated. Also, this:

• Slowly Slipping Into Evil: Starts off as nothing more than an art gallery worker. That's not how she ends the first season.

It's rather unspecific. That would be because she doesn't actually do anything evil. She's just romantically devoted to an evil man. The trope is therefore misused.

Yeah. Ditto Unholy Matrimony on the main page. That's about two threats being in love, not one threat simply having a girlfriend.

Just making sure I didn't miss something, because from what I saw, the worst she did was basically "want to be with a bad man."

I might do some cleanup, then.

Go nuts; I already did a bit myself. I took out 'Lady Macbeth' and 'Slowly Slipping Into Evil' for starters.

Yeah, I saw that. Axed Unholy Matrimony. The rest is alright, I think.

Still... just weird.

Wilson slowly comes around to the realization that he's a villain at the same progression that his relationship with Vanessa buds. Anyone who was told that without actually watching the show could reasonably conclude that she had something to do with it and that she's a bad guy, since she's standing where a bad guy usually stands.

But the worst she does is realize that Fisk has done some bad things and not care. I think most of those are understandable but still very bad misinterpretations of her.

Marvel confirmed a while ago that even though they have the tv rights for characters they don't have film rights for, they won't be putting any characters they don't have film rights for in any tv shows that connect to the MCU.

Except Wolverine cameo'd on both Ultimate Spiderman and Hulk And The Agents Of Smash.

Then again, he's Wolverine.