Deliberately Unwinnable Encounters?

First off, I'm fairly new to tabletop RP Gs (just started playing in September), so this is my first post in this forum. Hi!

I'm going to be dming for a group of friends this summer, and I'm currently in the process of coming up with a basic plotline, getting character info, etc. I have this idea for a section in which the P Cs get captured by brigands and they have to escape and fight their way out.

The main problem is actually getting them into that situation in the first place. I've realized that the P Cs failing is pretty rare, barring horrible rolls, so I came up with a few alternatives:

Option 1: Not give them an option at all. Just have them go to sleep one night, and wake up bound in cells. It will absolutely work, but is very obviously railroading. I don't mind a little of that personally if it makes the story more interesting, but I don't know how my players will feel about it.

Option 2: Make the fight deliberately unwinnable in an obvious fashion. Make it clear that the P Cs are outclassed, and give them the opportunity to surrender or fight, ending up captured either way. Upside is that it at least gives a little options, but it's still railroading and they will have to fight these npcs later. But I think if I just have enough of them, then they can fight them in groups later, and it should work.

Option 3: Make the fight winnable, but really hard. Advantage is that they will have an opportunity for success, but being new, I'm not confidant in my ability to judge how tough the fight should be, and it could end up being either situation 2, or too easy and have them just walk away.

I'm thinking Option 2 would be best, but what do you think? Is it better to include a forced plot point or throw out a lot of great material? At least 2 of the people in my campaign have done some sort of roleplay before, and one said he would be ok with it, but I'm still not sure...

In one campaign I ran, I did put the P Cs into a combat they couldn't win - there was an Eldritch Abomination chasing them. But I did give further hints about how to manage their escape, so that they could pull off a fighting retreat, including opportunities for the melee types to get their hits in without being curbstomped, because the point of the battle was for them to escape.

IMO, Option 2 is the best, as long as it's pretty clear that the P Cs are outnumbered and outgunned - and make sure the enemy asks them to surrender. Never just expect for the party to surrender, because it will never happen. Also, do expect to hear some complaints about railroading, just because you are pushing them into a situation with only one outcome.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Out of the options you have given I would definitely go with option three, option one is just to railroady. I would advise against forcing them into any situation at all, certainly plan the encounter and do your best to guide them into it but don't make it happen if the players don't go for it.

The best way to avoid being accused of railroading in this situation I feel would be to give the party plenty of information, hint that these brigands are powerful, and at the same time give the players a reason to enter conflict with them. That way if they end up captured it was a decision fully in their hands.

Additional if you go with option two but the players find a creative approach to the fight don't punish them for it, play it out fairly even if it means the party isn't captured. Clever plans or plotting out something with much forethought (such as bringing additional warriors to aid them or the like)) are definitely things to reward the players for. Likewise if they get amazingly lucky roles go with it.

In short an unwinnable encounter is fine but you shouldn't force a party into one or give them no escape from it (unless they brought it upon themselves). Ultimately you should plan the encounter but not force it on the players, let them choose what path to follow. I don't think you should plan out the plotline in this much detail, have encounters, antagonists, locations and the like planned out but make the plot responsive to player actions rather than vice versa.

One of the biggest things tabletop games can offer over video games and the like is the freedom of player action that's available and thats something you really shouldn't restrict. Certainly punish players for silly decisions and actions but let them make those decisions and actions.

Additionally have you considered other methods of them being captured such as a physical or arcane trap? It's still important to make sure that the players can avoid it though.

edited 30th Mar '15 12:46:30 AM by Laithelryn

First, welcome.

Second, for the encounter idea... hmm... going over the options presented...

I actually think a variant of Option #1 is the best - don't start the game with them meeting up, going to sleep, and getting captured. Start the game with them all getting captured individually before session started, and coming to roughly the same time in a cell. They can bond over their attempt to escape, and you also have the reason why they were able to be captured before but not now (they were easier pickings when alone). If you tell the players ahead of time that this will be the way the session starts, you generally won't have too many complaints about railroading.

I really don't like Option #2, because you run the risk of immediate character death right off the game. Now, if you're fine with the potential for a Killer Game Master moment out of the gate, and so are your players, that can work. Plus, even if it works, it's demoralizing to know that you're that overwhelmed that quickly.

Option #3 is a bit better, but you still have the risk of accidental death. I guess you could have the bad guys blow lots of resources, plus specialize in stuff like knockout poison or sleep spells to take the party alive, but there's still too many variables for me to like.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Thanks for the fast responses!

@Blueninja0- Thank you for the reminder! I don't think any party I've ever been in has considered surrender, so I'll make sure to have them ask if that's what I go with.

@Laithelryn- I've been struggling with this sort of thing, which is why I came here. I've actually considered some alternate main plotlines in case they don't go for the first idea they encounter. I'm just really worried that I'll over or under-do the fight if I try to go with option 3. I'm not so incredibly tied to them going here, but I think I could do some interesting things. I suppose I could always use some of the stuff somewhere else if I had to.

@32_footsteps- I'd think that was a great idea, except that I'm not starting off with this encounter, it will, if everything goes as planned (lol, of course it won't) happen in the second session. I've thought about reordering events to make it happen first, but half the point is to have them find out information that would be irrelevant if they hadn't met a particular npc yet.

I guess I do have it in my favor that the players are all pretty low-level (IF everything goes as plan, which it probably won't, they'll be second or third level at this point), so it probably wouldn't be that much of a stretch for them to be overwhelmed at some point. Additionally, I'm planning for them to find out while they're there that someone hired the brigands to capture them specifically, so perhaps them being prepared isn't so strange.

At this point, I'm thinking option 2 is the best, but I'm still unsure.

Is there any way you can incentivise being captured to the party? If one of them is poisoned or bleeding out they might be more willing to surrender to save their friend's life. Maybe you could have their pursuers attack them when they are vulnerable, such as if they have taken of their armour to sleep?

Are you able to tell us anymore information about the setting and the brigands or is there a risk your players might see it?

I don't think there's much risk the players will see it (there's only one that I know for sure has ever used TV tropes, I don't think she ever comes to the forums, and she definitely wouldn't be in this section)

Note: I realize this is really long and might be too much, and I apologize.

We're using Dungeons And Dragons 3.5e, mostly limited to the core rulebook set for simplicity's sake (I'm a new DM and we have several new players), with the exception of Libris Mortis, because the most experienced person wanted to use one of the prestige classes in it when the time comes.

I have four players lined up right now (possibly a fifth will be joining, but it seems unlikely)

1. A True Neutral half-elf Cleric/Sorcerer, who will end up as a Necromancer when the time comes. According to his player, he's a rather studious young person who's learning necromancy to bring his mother back to life and will probably turn evil as time goes on. His player has been playing for a while and has also been a dm before.

2. An True Neutral elf druid. According to her player, she's an calm logical agnostic who believes firmly in the impartiality of nature. Her player has never played any sort of tabletop rpg before, but has some (limited) experience with video games like Skyrim and Dragon Age and has done extensive roleplay in other settings.

3. A human fighter, whose alignment is unknown, but will most likely end up being Chaotic Good. According to his player, he'll help you out of a tight spot without question, but afterword, if he thinks you can pay him, he'll make you. His player has played some sort of tabletop rpg before, but it was a while ago and she says all she remembers is that "there was dice rolling and it was a lot of fun"

4. A ranger of unknown alignment, race, and personality (I haven't heard back from his player yet). His player has done a little Pathfinder, but doesn't have a ton of experience.

The setting is about 25 years after a planet-wide apocalypse. According to the background I'm giving the players, there was a series of discoveries of new uses for magic that lead to an advance from a standard swords-and-sorcery world to near sci-fi levels in less than a hundred years. However, in their haste to discover ever more powerful magic, the leaders triggered a magical accident that resulted in the majority of sentient beings dying, massive earthquakes, magical storms, etc. Now, survivors have started beginning to rebuild their society from the shattered remains of their cities, aided greatly by the fact that many of the longer-lived races still remember how things worked before the tech leap.

What this means for the campaign setting is lots of Scenery Gorn, a mix of high-fantasy and post apocalyptic elements with the occasional bit of steampunk thrown in, and a fair chance of encountering undead for the necromancer to practice on. I'm anticipating spending large amounts of time in the lawless wilderness, traveling between refugee villages and survivor's farms, and dodging or fighting Apocalypse Anarchy though I do have a few larger cities planned if that's more to players' taste.

The current main plot idea is that they begin in a small village that's been set up recently, only to have it immediately attacked. Being self-preserving types, they'll probably want to defend themselves, after which they'll be approached by my planned Big Bad, who introduces herself as the village priestess and informs them that they're some variety of Chosen One (probably with some sort of Vagueness Is Coming prophecy to go with it) and asks their help with an innocent and heroic-sounding task.

After they leave the village, they encounter the bandits that are the subject of this thread, who capture them and debate whether to kill them, try and ransom them off, or take them to one of the larger cities to sell- they've been paid to capture the pcs specifically and informed of their abilities, but not who they are or why they need to be killed, so they see a little chance at additional profit.

The idea here is that the Big Bad is a high-ranking member of an apocalypse cult that wants to "finish the work that's already been started" by awakening a giant monster to destroy the rest of the world. Part of that involves sacrificing villages at specific locations. When the pcs show up, she realizes they might interfere and decides to get them out of the way in a way that won't make anyone suspicious: bandits are a common enough problem that encountering them won't be odd, and if they succeed, she's rid of the pcs right there. If they fail, she gets some minor task done for her and the party out of the way long enough to do what she needs to.

The intent is to pull a Wrong Side All Along situation later on that will also give some revenge motivation for any characters that aren't likely to care about doing things for the greater good.

Is it possible that the priestess could have given the bandits a scroll or some form of enchanted item which can cast a spell along the lines of hold person? Such an item could cast a spell at a higher level than would be normal for enemies the players face at their level which should mean that at least some of them become ensnared and it gives the bandits a way to defeat players without killing them. It also makes it far harder for the party to flee and if only half the party can fight it may be much more apparent to them that they are fighting a losing battle.

That way you could potentially use the bandits having such an ability as foreshadowing that someone more powerful and involved in spellcasting was connected to their capture. Especially if they later come into contact with cult members who use spells like that.

edited 1st Apr '15 2:19:41 PM by Laithelryn

That's a great idea! It still falls into the unwinnable category, but it does explain why they got defeated by ordinary bandits, as well as providing an explanation for why they're easier to fight later on.

Thank you so much for the help! I'm getting really excited to run this campaign!

I'm glad you think its a usable idea! I truly wish you the best of luck with running your campaign and I hope it goes brilliantly for you!

Here's an idea - the Big Bad gives a trinket to the bandits, and tells the adventuring party it was stolen from her. Then she suggests the best way to get it back would be to allow themselves to be captured. Once they do that, then everyone wants the P Cs in the same place, at least for a while.

If, instead, they try to sneak into the bandit camp to rob them back, have a mysterious stranger (the Big Bad in disguise) show up with a mass Hold Person spell to capture them anyway.

Hmm. One option is the bandits chase them into an indefensible ravine, or the bandits lure the heroes with their own retreat into falling into a deep pit trap, or wherever they're attacked is indefensible itself. Like say, the village has a large cliff overlooking it, and the bandits took out the lookouts nest and filled it with archers and spell casters. Having the bandits threaten the town with a lite version of the world wrecking magic that was used unless they hand over the PC's (or threaten the PC's with same unless they surrender) might do the trick.

edited 5th Apr '15 9:02:53 AM by Earnest

Better to throw out great material.

If you won't throw out great material, then it is better to go with Option #1, because 2&3 are identical from a player perspective, and telling your players this is a railroad point is better than showing your players this is a railroad point.

It's more fun to skip over an obviously unfair fight than it is to play out the fight. Only do an unfair fight if the players have something to gain that way. (Yes, you can gain things when you lose a fight: see the previous post about a fighting escape)

edited 8th Apr '15 5:48:20 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

In 7th Sea, we had an unwinnable encounter where we were to be captured... we initially didn't plan to resist arrest, until the enemy noble told us our weapons would be confiscated... one of us had his weapon as the very symbol of his nobility, so "Nein.". Cue us picking our weapons back up and not dropping them until we end up knocked out. This was a good fight.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

one thing I have found is you need to know your players.... some will attack even when the odds are stacked against them unless they're "holyshitwe'regonnadie" odds, e.g. when I G Med a game of Dark Heresy and put loyalist Alpha Legion in there I knew if it were only one or two Marines the party would probably attack them... so I stuck an entire Marine squad in there (5 in all), a bit lore breaking, I know (Alpha Legion operatives normally work alone), but it was more than enough to convince the party (who by that point had access to bolt, poor quality plasma, and hot shot las weapons) that if they tried to start shit they WOULD die

advancing the front into TV Tropes