Christianity in your writing

Then you should get educated, because the Demiurge as a philosophical concept dates to at least Plato and is a key component of pretty much every Gnostic take on religion, Christian or otherwise.

Also, to quote Sid Meier: "The question is not why would a perfect god create a universe so full of evil. The question is why would a perfect god create a universe at all?"

edited 18th Jun '15 12:35:39 PM by Night

Isn't the Demiurge evil, or at least responsible for the corrupt nature of the material world? To the best of my knowledge no one worships it.

The big difference, of course, is whether or not you believe that there is an ultimate power in the universe, some one force or entity that is primary or more fundamental than all others. This corresponds to an ultimate truth- a source of all that exists. You either believe in such a thing or you dont. If you dont, then all the Gods are more or less equal- just manifestations of different aspects of existence. But if you do believe in such a thing- an ultimate source of all that is- then naturally you would want to cut out all the middlemen and connect directly to that source. This is the essential core of all monotheistic belief systems- that the cosmos has a singular source and human beings can connect to it.

What I'm saying is, if you have a monotheistic belief system in your story then you the author should make a decision (which the reader may not need to know)- are they right? The metaphysical implications for your setting are huge. If they are not right, then they are at best misguided and at worst deluded fools. If they are right, then it only makes sense that their belief system would give them advantages that the worshipers of more limited Gods wouldn't have.

Thematically, monotheism is all about the search for the ultimate cosmic truth. If you decide that there is no such truth to be found within your story, then why include monotheism at all?

I think it's the human element. Even if you don't think that this-or-that religion (or any religion, even) is right, it doesn't mean you can't have characters who think otherwise, and that can result in the inclusion of religion as a theme of some sort, be it a minor or a major theme.

Also, I really don't want to be an ass, but well ... when you are referring to any deity in general rather than the one Christians worship, you don't capitalise the word "god" (so when you use the plural form of this word, it is never capitalised, unless you are implying that Christians are cloning their deity and giving every clone the same name ... which is a bit silly, but there's probably a book with that plot somewhere). No, really, you don't. Doing that is akin to capitalising the word "fridge" regardless of the context after spending too much time on this site.

I'll try to police my use of "God" and "god" a little better.

Even assuming that there were one deity that created the universe, it does not naturally follow that anyone is actually worshipping it or that it even notices that worship if they are.

An intelligence capable of creating a universe may well be so vast that it cannot be comprehended by mortals - or even by lesser gods that have the ability to alter things within that universe.

Or it may be comprehensible but doesn't care - has moved on to other things and left this universe behind.

Your view is Theistic - that the One God naturally made itself known to any sentient creations and desires their worship. That said God is actually comprehensible and has humanlike emotions - such as love, wrath, anger, jealousy - and created the universe out of a desire to be worshipped.

And you are assuming that any author of a story has to take the Theistic approach and decide which of the gods currently being worshipped in-story is the "right" one.

However, the author could decide that none of them are. The author could take the Deistic approach and decide that the creator deity did so and washed his hands of the universe. It has no desire to be worshipped - may not even be aware of the sentient life within the universe except inasmuch as we're aware that benign bacteria exist (we know they're there but they're doing no harm, so "what the hey!")

The author could also decide that there are other gods - not as powerful as the creator but still immortal and powerful and have made themselves known to "their peoples" and the religions within the story - including Christianity - are all worshipping real gods but none of them the actual creator.

Yes, in the context of the story, it would make all religions that purport to worship the creator "lies", but what of that?

It's a story.

The author could also decide that there are no other gods and all the religions in the story are "wrong" or "lies" and only the Deists in the story are "right".

Again, it's a story.

But the author is under no compulsion to choose that one of the deities in the story is the actual creator and afford its followers any advantages over the followers of "limited gods".

As to how accurately that reflects Real Life: very well. If the atheists or the deists are correct, all people claiming to be worshipping the creator are wrong.

Clear. Comprehensive. Thank you.

Its not "my view", monotheism was the premise we were discussing (it was actually Christianity). Nowhere did I say that the author had to adopt a theistic perspective, only that the author should make a decision about it. If you include theistic characters in your story (using your definition of theism, which is a good one), are they right or wrong?

Of course an author can decide to do whatever they want to- it's their story. But you know those how-to websites that advise authors to create a detailed backstory to their main characters even if they dont end up using all the information? I feel that the same consideration applies to the setting. If you decide to include a monotheistic religion in a story where at least some gods are real, then taking the time to decide what the truth is within your universe will help add consistency and believability to your story- even if you never end up using the information. Either the universe was created by a known deity or it wasnt- either way is fine, but the author should know which one it is- and if a major segment of your secondary characters have gotten it wrong, then there should be some sort of narrative consequences (otherwise why include these details in the first place?). If everyone is wrong, yet the gods exist, well that's an interesting premise to me, I would like to see it developed. Are all the gods lying to their adherents? What would happen if one god spoke the truth? There are some interesting story possibilities there.

What it all comes down to is the author's world-view. Your world doesnt have to resemble the real one in any way- but the universe you create will reflect your unique interests and stylistic preferences in a way that will hopefully engage your readers. I believe that your story is more likely to engage your readers if it's well-developed in your mind. So make a choice- what is the metaphysical truth behind all the gods?

That is a good point, yes.

Though I don't necessarily agree that everything has to be laid out, even if it is not shown to the readers. It is better for most things to be, sure, but sometimes there are things which even in author's mind can be summed up with "haven't the foggiest" without detracting from the immersion, e.g. when it's something that is inherently unknown in the world of the story and everyone is left guessing.

And, of course, in the end it indeed is up to the author to do whatever they do in a way that works, and that's that.

Cant argue with that.

It's not like it'd be the first time the creator of the work didn't have the foggiest of what was really going on at the beginning of the work [cough]Lost[/cough].

Whether or not they come up with what is the in-story reality at a later date (or for a later book/show/movie) is a different matter.

In fact, I'm currently working on a story that has an in-story effect that could have any one of numerous explanations - and I don't have a fucking clue which of the prevaling in-story theories is correct - if any.

It's not important: these are the observable facts, these are all the theories about what's happening, these are the consequences of the facts (which don't prove or disprove any of the theories).

If I never work out what was happening to cause it, it won't matter - unless I wanted to make the actual cause a plot-point for a later work, which is unlikely.

Likewise, working out in advance if the Theists, Deists or Atheists are "right" in the story's 'verse may well not matter in the scope of the story.

You could have deities existing and being active participants, or at least reliable resources, and not once make up your own mind if any of the religions based around them is "right".

You could, for sake of argument, have no idea for the first story, be tending towards a Deistic outlook while you're writing the sequel and then decide "no, it works better if that god is actually the real creator and these guys were right all along'' for the final part of the trilogy - and without once breaking continuity (because nothing previously written expressly rules out a Theistic outlook).

'd by De Marquis

edited 20th Jun '15 7:15:47 PM by Wolf1066

"It's not like it'd be the first time the creator of the work didn't have the foggiest of what was really going on at the beginning of the work [cough]Lost[/cough]."

So not helping your argument.

It was better in the earlier seasons when they only claimed to have a kick-arse reason behind everything but were really just making shit up as they went along...

Again, what we mean when we say “god” is important. How do you as a creator define a god within the confines of your creation? If a god must be the originator of the cosmos, then there may only be one such being. If a god can be any worshiped being, then the originator of the cosmos (if there is one) may only be one of many.

True verisimilitude means that everything DOESN’T have to have a direct effect on the story. In real life, Yaweh may or may not be the originator of the cosmos, but my life is what it is either way. And again, people’s religious beliefs may be almost entirely divorced from the facts of their reality.

edited 21st Jun '15 10:02:19 PM by nekomoon14

I've seen ways that Christianity or even an in-story existence of God doesn't render all other deities or cosmologies wrong.

Percy Jackson And The Olympians: "You're telling me that God is real?" "Let's not get metaphysical about it. The gods are real."

The Dresden Files: God is the name given to the order of events and intuitions that Harry has witnessed create positive and reliable results. Harry Dresden has even met the archangel Gabriel. But the fae also exist, and the vampires also exist, and Hades also exists, but God leaves them all alone and focuses on dealing with the angel-human-demon sphere...except when He doesn't even do that last bit because Mysterious Ways.

Constantine (I've only seen the television series): Papa Midnight's lwa are real, but so is Constantine's guardian angel.

Fullmetal Alchemist : God's kind of a creepy jerk that you only sometimes see during near-resurrection experiences, and does not care at all about worldwide tragedies like genocide, or personal tragedies either. The devotion of devotees only affects human relationships and maybe politics.

Another idea I had for portraying YHWH (or an expy) alongside a regular pantheon of gods, is to have it so that YHWH isn't quite omnipotent, but rather, is a memetic badass in-universe such that people (and gods) often act like he is.

edited 30th Jul '15 10:37:11 PM by Protagonist506

Catholic themes have been usual in my writings, as I'm a catholic, or at least I was born and raised as such.

But I would be naive if i tried to claim my own personal convictions doesn't bleed into the story, they do.

I usually portray the church in a balanced way, or I try, at least. Generally speaking, I don't get into theological stuff as I don't care about ir IRL, but I rather much more like to depict de church as a group of people as evil or benevolent as any group might be, as I'm on the idea that "groups" doesn't have morality, and are the individuals inside them that conform the morality of the group, wich, unlike individual morality, is spurious. So, the Church, and many other social organizations, for that matter, are Chaotic Neutral in my stories.

I would think that organizations of any kind are inherently lawful.

In terms of morality? nah

Not necessarily. For example, an organization who's goal is top spread Neitzches ideals would be a chaotic organization. Similarly a cabal of anarchists would be the same.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "organization". I was assuming a structured organization, with recognized positions including leadership. An organization that seriously tried to live by Neitzche's ideals (as opposed to merely discussing them or educating people about them) couldn't exist.

Sure it could. Fraternal organizations are still organizations, and may have rules and modes of approved behavior and interaction.

Babylon Five creator JMS had this to say via his characters "I trust individuals, not organizations."

A [INSERT RELIGION HERE] based organizations have some ethos and a code of conduct that should guide them.

I get that the Sinister Minister trope is in effect for large orgs that have a diverse populace and the smaller orgs blinded by worldly concerns.

It's important to show the bad with the good if your writing about a real religion, otherwise the characters come across as strawmen. Same goes for a made-up religion and it's church.

A cult is another matter, some are evil all the way down, others are just scams run by the higher ups.

Pah. Organizational rules and expectations are herd instinct. The Ubermensch follows his own rules.

I usually just make sure my characters respect personal boundaries, and try to make it clear that no one is "right" when it comes to religion. (Granted, accurately portraying beliefs at a time when there's such a clash between humanism and dogmatism means you can pretty much make things up regarding which beliefs a character chooses to feel strongest about...)

That is very true. Moral conflicts can result in good character development.