How two write gud?

I've got a plot. I've got a setting. I've got a cast of characters. I have an idea of how scenes would play out in my head. But I can't get it down on paper.

Essentially, every time I try to actually write the damned thing (no matter if I start at the beginning or dive right into an interesting scene) my sentences seem... kind of repetitive and just overall bad. I struggle to fill the page, and I can't make up the random filler between relevant plot points. My dialogue feels stiff and full of clichés, and my characters don't feel like my characters. My pacing is all over the place, and I immediately burn through plot-relevant moments because I can't fill the gaps in between. I don't understand why, but I've never had this issue with short stories etc.. They just seem to flow much better.

Basically I'm asking if anyone else has these problems and for some advice. I know I could probably do with more extensive planning, but I'm similarly clueless as to how to manage that. I've gotten one line summaries for every chapter in the past, but basically they boiled down to 'characters fuck around in X city' which were impossible to write. Any help?

Write now, edit later.

Don't.

Does your story HAVE to be a novel? Length for the sake of length is bad.

Isn't there an overarching plot that's leading to something? Each chapter should just be the next step towards that. Or is your book a Slice of Life?

edited 30th Dec '14 7:43:54 PM by Wheezy

Powering through it and editing afterwards is a good idea, thanks.

With regards to the random filler... I suppose I phrased that badly. I mean the kind of dialogue and description that give flow to the narrative between plot points. I've so far tried to avoid too much exposition because I'd probably fall into the trap of just explaining the setting in too much detail and being boring.

On it having to be a novel... ideally yes. The plot is one that takes place over a reasonably long period of time, and I'd want to go into far more detail than, say, a short story. It's a pretty standard long drawn-out fantasy novel. For a while (before I decided it would be too difficult) it was going to be a graphic novel though, which being honest it's possibly better suited for. It's pretty clear drawing a character that is in pain, but you need to keep reminding readers and think of some decent descriptions further than "he was in pain" in text.

I do have an overarching plot, but yet again I'm having trouble with filler. The travelling between key locations and such just seems impossible to write. Or, say, the characters are in X location where they do something significant that feels like it warrants a full chapter, but outside of the significant action it's basically 'exist in X city for a few more pages'.

The way I see it, in terms of the "filler" you describe, a given scene should set out to do one of three things. In order of importance, these are:

1. Advance the overarching plot

2. Develop one or more of your characters

3. Be otherwise funny or interesting

Ideally you'll do all three at once, but having just one is usually enough to justify a scene.

Exposition is also necessary but it's best delivered through one of these three, particularly in Fantasy. So, you'll have it best if a scene uses a character's personality to showcase worldbuilding- maybe have something they really like doing be a part of the world that's different from ours so you can exposit on it without being just exposition. Get more bang for your writing buck, both develop a character and give the reader necessary information at the same time.

Out of curiosity, what kind of story are you writing? Intrigue?

edited 30th Dec '14 8:52:46 PM by Gault

You might find it interesting to know that there actually exists two types of writers: narrative and episodic. Narrative writers are always thinking ahead, where to take their characters next, and how to expand the world of the story further. They can basically pull exposition out of their asses, and they don't have problems with writing text as much as keeping the story focused on what's relevant. Episodic writers, on the other hand, write denser text and stories that are more atmospheric, flashes of something bigger that is left up to the reader's imagination.

Rather than just a way of writing, the episodic and narrative types are ways of thinking. I know from personal experience that it can be really difficult to write short stories if you're a novelist and vice versa. I am for example of the narrative type and I have always struggled to keep my short stories within the required length.

I also happen to know a writer who's of the episodic type. When I first met her, she had never in her life written a story longer than four pages. To me that was shocking since I can only keep my stories that short if I really force it and cut out a lot of stuff I would rather keep in the text.

Now, I'm not saying that a person could not write both novels and short stories. Obviously many writers have done both, and there's no reason why you couldn't do the same. You should, however, consider the possibility that your problems stem from the fact that short story is the more natural form of storytelling for you personally.

edited 30th Dec '14 9:07:24 PM by Paradisesnake

Oh yeah, for filler, you can include a subplot. Subplots can help develop side characters while adding more depth and variety to your story.

edited 30th Dec '14 9:31:27 PM by Wheezy

I suppose I should go through and plan the thing scene-by-scene and make sure to identify whether it addresses those criteria, but even when it does it can be hard to actually flesh it out. It's sort of adventure-type fantasy? There's intrigue on some level, but the plot mostly focuses on the threat of the End of the World as We Know It.

That's actually very interesting. I would definitely be an episodic writer then,maybe I can find a way to make that work to my advantage somehow.

Actually throwing in a few more subplots mightn't be a bad idea. The current narrative is pretty simple.

As others have said, it can be paralyzing to try to create and evaluate at the same time. That's like doing cardio while trying to win a burger-eating contest.

Maybe the plot, setting, cast, and scenes aren't ripe yet for transliterating to text. Are these all just ideas that you're trying to turn into prose directly? Because one thing that I've personally found has served as a great bridge between the two is alphanumerical plot outlines with the details of the scenes◊ so there's stuff written under sections for the exposition, rising action, climax, denouement; beneath each section the scenes with the characters and motivations and actions and objects that are available to act against. It's not the actual manuscript, but it has enough detail that I feel like this story won't crumble if I lean on it.

And, if it turns out to be a style problem, like your internal instinct for style isn't something that can receive and hold fully the artistic vision, well, two of my role-model writers for good story but unimpressive writing style is Scott Westerfeld and Gail Carson Levine. I love their stuff, it's just that style isn't everything. Neither is pacing: I've read some Westerfeld fans joke that whenever he gets stuck in the story, he makes something in the story explode. Levine did have some very good advice in her how-to book, Writing Magic where she first gives a lot of exercises after an essay about noticing and writing details, and then the next chapter covers how to hone details that are important to the story. That really cleared things up for me for how a concrete detail can be imbued with something as abstract as a mood.

I hope the outline can also help if, say, you can think of each chapter as a new short story, and the overarching plot as a sort of thematic prompt?

edited 1st Jan '15 12:38:29 AM by Faemonic

Something that I've found out to help me is a deceptively simple concept. The concept of world-building and characterization. I mean, that's basic terminology for writers, but keeping those concepts in mind helped me flesh out the story more.

Like, the plot is fixed, okay, but I like to fill in-betweens with world and character exploration. For instance, if the hero if a Knight Errant trying to fight a dragon, I could add a scene where he discusses with villagers what the dragons mean, the different types of dragon (if there are any), how they affect the daily life of this world, e.t.c

Or, perhaps, making a scene where a villager recognizes the knight errant from some former war and he discusses his part and opinion it, fleshign out more the knight's motivation and character.

This ends up "filling" several pages without making the book feel empty, to me.

So doing a really in-depth outline first is the way to go? That's no fun . I might check out Writing Magic too.

Okay, so throwing in scenes with commoners and other otherwise irrelevant extras might work to bulk up the text. Thanks!

You're welcome. Well, they don't need to be extras, though I like using "irrelevant extras" because they provide a outsider, The Everyman perspective to the main character, the world, and the events occurring. A scene with, I don't know (using the same set-up as above) the errant knight discussing with his squire about the dragon works just as well, if not better (because it allows characterization for both the squire and the knight smiltaneously).

Point is, exploring the characters and the world.

So just try to add as much discussion as possible? I suppose it does help advance the plot, characterisation and world building at once while filling page space. I hadn't really thought of that (I usually avoid dialogue where I can because it can be tricky, but I think that's just from lack of practice).

Really appreciating the advice here guys.

My perception of it is that as long as the dialogue is interesting, it works. Sometimes I also use internal monologue when I feel the character is not a chatty one .

On a purely mechanical level, how does one write internal monologues? What are the grammar rules for thoughts? If it's just a quick sentence I usually just put it in italics, but for a longer monologue I'd imagine that works less well.

As far as I've seen, dialogue > internal monologue. Depending on the perspective of your story (don't know if you're writing first or third person) internal monologues might not be all that feasible. Anyway they are best used for occasional stray thoughts.

But no, if you can put concepts into dialogue with another character as opposed to internal monologue/soliloquy, do it. Elmore Leonard once remarked "try to leave out the parts people skip...people don't skip dialogue", and I think it pretty good advice. Same thing applies to your statement about needing to add filler...you don't. If something doesn't directly add to the reader's understanding of the story or the characters it does not need to be in the book. Law of Conservation of Detail is a good rule to follow. :)

In your OP you mentioned wincing at repetitiveness. Fixing things like that are what editing is for. First drafts are always going to be clunky; try not to sweat that too much.

Okay, so more dialogue in general is the way to go? I suppose that makes a lot of sense. I still find dialogue hard, but I think practice should fix. Same with editing I suppose. Making sure the characters sound and feel like they do in my head could be tricky though.

The first draft can be as rough as you like.

If you can't write one scene or the transition between one episode and another, don't bother - leave yourself a note that it needs to be done and do something you can.

My first drafts are mostly random scenes that I've felt inspired to write arranged vaguely in order and strung together with notes to the effect of "describe how they got here", "this scene starts with A and B trapped in an abandonned building" or even quick summaries of scenes that I haven't yet been able to nail.

Repetition abounds, as do errors.

I don't have your problem with dialogue - in fact, quite the opposite: some of my first draft scenes are nothing but dialogue and need to be reworked to include at least some action - but I, too, tend to be rather episodic in writing style.

Bear in mind, there's nothing at all wrong with glossing over some lengthy bits where nothing happens with "they marched through the Blasted Lands for many days until they finally arrived at the gates of the city" and then launching into the city "episode".

Really helpful! I think one of the reasons I haven't written the first draft sooner (I started planning a ridiculous amount of time ago) is because I've tried to get it acceptable on the first try.

Really helpful guys!

I think the problem is that you're skipping the first step:

What is you story about? I don't mean "What happens in it", I mean what ideas are you trying to express? What themes? What things is the story supposed to discuss?

Once you know what you're actually writing about, it becomes a lot easier to fill the page. You don't need filler anymore; you pick parts of your idea and explore them further.

Good point, I tend to forget about themes etc.. Honestly I still need to iron out exactly what they are (I have a rough idea, accepting responsibility for actions etc.). But I'm struggling to see how I can use them to bulk up the pages. Should I try to hammer the themes home with a mallet and discuss them in most of the scenes?

I like that, bloodsquirrel.

The way I understood the notion is that you're getting to the heart of your story and making sure that this heart is beating. If the theme or message is something that has truly touched you, then you're going to want to get it out there, and you're naturally going to find many, many, many ways to convey it: by the example of what the characters say and do to each other, by their motivations that brought them to that point, and so on so forth. Not necessarily through exposition, editorializing, or moralizing.

Not that endeavoring to capture inspired, escapist adventure is insufficient...but, well, if you're stuck then this can be something to consider...

edited 3rd Jan '15 12:15:06 AM by Faemonic

Getting those themes to come out can often be part of character development - for example, you want to show "accepting responsibility for actions", you need to have someone who does not and have them acting without regard for the consequences, earning the ire of those around them, getting bitten in the arse by those consequences (or by their inability to see it's their responsibility) a few times over the course of the story, and then, perhaps, learning by the end of it that they are responsible for the results of their actions and taking the first steps towards doing something about it and maybe thinking things through before acting.

Picking a "theme" and hammering it home in the filler would play merry hell with the pacing and perhaps come across as Anvilicious.

edited 3rd Jan '15 2:03:34 AM by Wolf1066

& So just kind of weave the themes into all the interactions between characters? Kind of like the tone, always present but not always commented upon.

Don't worry about particulars, OP. What you need is practice.

Read a lot of heavy material and write as much as you can, and eventually writing stories will become a natural process to you. You will instinctively know what works and what doesn't once you do it enough.

I have heard the concept of building and releasing tension in the story, can keep a reader immersed in the story without being emotionally overwhelmed by the intensity of the book, or underintensity of the book. When should a "tension release" begin?