Cleaning & Reorganizing Weaponry Tropes:

Honestly, I'm leaning towards slash and burn. We can make a list of stuff we want to remake clean, but most of the examples on the current pages wouldn't be salvageable for new tropes any way.

I am sort of inclined to agree. Nearly all examples I see are deletionworthy, and from prior wick cleanup experience most examples (3/4 or more) on tropes with ZCE issues tend to deserve deletion.

I still disagree. I think that just relabeling these Weapon Of Choice tropes to be strictly about Signature Weapons only is the way to go.

Weapons are a huge character design element, I mean huge, characters get literally inseparable from their weapons so much so even their static figures have them.◊ they are as important to a character design as You Gotta Have Blue Hair, Puni Plush, Tareme Eyes or any other character design trope. Sure there are generic weapons out there but we got the trope to cover that already in Heroes Prefer Swords.

Seriously can you separate Donatello from Ninja turtles from his staff? No.

edited 9th Mar '15 8:44:48 AM by Memers

Yes, but that trope would be Signature Weapon and would describe the weapon, the character, and what the weapon symbolizes. It wouldn't be a ZCE list of everyone who ever picked up a staff. Signature Weapon is a trope, but the current mess does nothing to address it.

I don't know, they would just need a minor rewrite to make them that and ZC Es themselves can DIAF anyway you look at it though as they should be talking about the weapons themselves, their characteristics, appearances and such even with the tropes as is.

edited 9th Mar '15 10:37:51 AM by Memers

But there's zero reason why Signature Weapon should be broken down by type of weapon, especially when historically, doing so makes writers lazy and fills things with ZC Es. Never mind that none of the current examples are salvageable for that sort of trope. You're basically going to have to blank them and start fresh anyway.

If we have to blank the pages and start fresh, I would prefer we begin with the highest possible supertrope, and work down from there. Signature Weapon is a good place to start. I'm 80% convinced that we need to start fresh.

I think that sounds like a good idea. A Signature Weapon is something that specifically ties to the character, rather than something she might just be wielding at the time. And you can probably argue for days about what Gordon Freeman's weapon symbolises and what it implies and therefore what trope it fits, but there's really no doubt that his Signature Weapon is a crowbar, despite him being an FPS protagonist who uses a lot of different weapons. Well, the gravity gun is also a signature weapon for him. I think both are even mentioned as such in-game.

edited 10th Mar '15 10:48:42 AM by AnotherDuck

Gordon Freeman basically has two different signature weapons in two different games, and that's ok. I think that in general, the trope should be limited to one weapon per character per work, or people are going to list any weapon any character has ever used.

Well one weapon or set of weapons for one character per one work.

For Characters that have more than one weapon, the weapon needs to be their iconic weapon that shows up in their character arc, promo images and such.

IE Dante from Devil May Cry might have 5 weapons to choose from by the Rebellion and Ebony and Ivory are his Signature ones, used in tandem, so much so that they have appeared in other games promoting Dante and DMC in place of the character himself.

But Indiana Jones while having 2 weapons, only the Whip is a Signature weapon. And Vaan in Final Fantasy XII does not have a signature weapon in it due to being able to equip all the weapons in the game and not one is canon, 3 of the 6 though do due to their art and in game usage. But Theatrhythm gives Vaan the Sword◊ thus making it his Signature Weapon for that game.

edited 10th Mar '15 1:57:58 PM by Memers

While this is going into specific examples, I find Final Fantasy VII an interesting case.

Aerith, Barret, Cloud, Cid, and Yuffie have their first weapons (although you could argue that Cid is more about spears in general, and the dragoon style of fighting). Vincent is much more associated with the Death Penalty. Tifa has her red gloves, but I'm unsure I'd count that as a weapon, as it's really more about punching stuff really hard in the face. Red XIII and Cait Sith aren't associated with the weapons they use, but those are also kind of strange weapons.

edited 10th Mar '15 4:34:50 PM by AnotherDuck

We do have a ykttw for Signature Game Weapon before.

I'd ask, why game-specific?

I wouldn't say the sword is Vann's Signature Weapon just because it's the one he uses in that game. The weapon isn't named. It's not recognizable as his without him holding it. There's nothing special in the game about the sword. It just happens to be what he's holding. I think we need a list of criteria that the weapon has to meet other than just being the weapon that someone happens to use during a work. Especially something that has loads and loads of characters like Theta Rhythm.

That weapon is the Mythril Sword, his starting weapon in the orignal game. He appears with it in Dissidia and Theatrhythm, Not Tactics A2 which he has a cutlass to fit his sky pirate theme and class.

But I don't think a weapon has to be named or even be anything special really.

The Warrior Of Light◊ in Dissidia's signature weapon is One-Handed Zweihänder and shield. Its not named or anything like that its just what he uses and its completely connected to his character.

Sure names and such help connect to the character but its really a bonus.

edited 10th Mar '15 7:11:41 PM by Memers

Signature Game Weapon

It's more about an iconic weapon for a given work/franchise than for a character, even though it overlaps a lot.

I think a list of criteria where most but not all are needed is a good thing. Three out of four, or something like that. The weapon having a name would be one. Appearances in offical art would be another. Actual mentions like Word of God or lampshades would probably be a direct qualifier.

I don't think "the weapon having a name" is really that indicative, even as part of a list of criteria.

I'm not sure I'm following; how does this proposed Signature Weapon trope differ from Weapon Of Choice?

If I'm understanding this correctly, Weapon Of Choice seems to be about how certain types of characters prefer certain types of weapons. Like, mages use staffs or wands; modern soldiers use automatic weapons; samurai use katana; barbarians use clubs; etc.

Signature Weapon would be more about a specific weapon associated with a specific character. Like, from Halo, Master Chief is closely associated with the assault rifle, and the Arbiter is associated with his Energy Sword. Sora from Kingdom Hearts is associated with the basic keyblade, the one that looks like a silver key with a golden handle and a crown keychain (if I recall correctly), as opposed to the tons that are available in the game. You don't see much official art of Master Chief wielding a plasma pistol, yet he's often shown wielding the assault rifle.

An instance that would overlap: Jedi in general use lightsabers, making it their Weapon Of Choice, but specific Jedi (and Sith) have specific lightsabers of a particular color and design. I can't recall which is which, but I do know that, for instance, Mace Windu's Signature Weapon would be his purple lightsaber. It's distinctive—I think it's the only purple lightsaber that appears in the films—and it's his most iconic (maybe his only) weapon.

Edit: Oh, and a specific character that prefers a class of weapons but isn't strongly associated with a specific one would fall under Weapon Of Choice. For example, Lloyd Irving of Tales of Symphonia uses dual-wielding swords/katanas, making that his WOC, but he's not really strongly associated with a specific one. Likewise, Genis uses a kodama, Collette uses chakrams, Raine uses a staff, and so on; none of them have a specific weapon that's particularly iconic, but they definitely have a Weapon Of Choice.

(And just to prevent those from looking like ZCEs, Lloyd's dual-wielding swords signifies his brash personality and tendency to charge headlong into trouble without much thought for his own safety; Genis's kodama signifies his intelligence and love of puzzles; Raine's staff is a generic "Look at me I'm a white mage" staff; and Collette's chakrams are meant to be reminiscent of halos, since she's the Chosen One (and becomes an angel over the course of the story).

edited 12th Mar '15 8:30:38 AM by SolipSchism

Yeah Weapon Of Choice is / should be about specific weapon categories that a character uses, which is mainly a video game specific thing.

Like say Tidus in Final Fantasy X uses a sword that is his Weapon Of Choice and there are a bunch of models and names of swords he can equip, why does he use a sword? He is a general character and Heroes Prefer Swords. But his Signature Weapon would be The Brotherhood which he has on the cover of the game and various plot related events.

Games where any character can equip anything like Final Fantasy XII do / should not have a Weapon Of Choice but still some characters have a Signature Weapon such as Balthier's Altair which is in his character art, used in cutscenes outside the party and in other appearances.

edited 12th Mar '15 11:32:11 AM by Memers

You know.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I was wondering if there's any trope that describes the tendency for a Signature Weapon to be one of the worst and/or earliest weapons in the game. Brotherhood, for example, is one of the first swords Tidus gets, and while it has some nice offensive boosts by the end of the game, it's not much better than any other swords, and it has a very specific elemental quality that makes it useless in a lot of circumstances.

Likewise, Sora's signature weapon is the first one you get in the game (not counting the wooden sword), and unlike the Brotherhood, it is unarguably one of the worst weapons in the game.

Tales characters are almost always depicted on the cover art wielding the first or second weapon they get in the game—although admittedly those aren't really Signature Weapons.

Master Chief is usually depicted with the Assault Rifle, which is the second weapon you get in Halo, and as far as I know, not very popular (I'd say it's bad, but that's my opinion). The latter might be subjective, but it's the second weapon available in the game. (Actually, now that I think of it, the plasma pistol and rifle might be available earlier, but I'm not sure; regardless, it is available on the first level, unlike many weapons like the needler and sniper rifle, and so on.)

edited 12th Mar '15 11:39:46 AM by SolipSchism

Final Fantasy VII Squall and everyone else would be included in that too, only their default weapons get out of battle and CG models, everything else is gameplay upgrades. Lightning and Vaan's starting weapons are that too now that I think about it.

Occasionally though ultimate weapons are there too like FFII's Blood Sword is Firion's Signature Weapon in Dissidia, Tidus's Brotherhood plays in tandom with the Caladbolg, so do Yuna's.

So if Signature Weapon becomes a thing in the form that we're currently discussing, should the idea I just brought up be an Internal Subtrope or should I YKTTW it as a distinct but wholly-encompassed Sub-Trope?

Well I see two tropes there,

In Battle Only Upgrades- weapons and gear equipped only have models in battle and out of battle, cutscenes, FM Vs and such only have their starting equipment or not show certain pieces at all.

Starting Signature Weapon - the Signature Weapon is the one you start with, possibly due to them using it outside of the party already and such.

The former is a trope completely on its own, the latter would just be a line inside Signature Weapon's description IMO.