How to tell if you're a bad writer?

A lot people over my life, from relatives to teachers and even college professors, have told me I'm a talented writer. As a result, I've entered writing contests over and over again, only to not just lose, but lose miserably.

So, I'm asking, how can we strip away ego or even just out perspective due to being the writer to see if we're even good at it?

It's possible when they say you're a "good writer" that they actually mean "you have good technical skill at writing". Being a good storyteller is a different matter, and one a lot of budding writers (and readers) get confused about. Just because you can spell and punctuate correctly, string together grammatically correct sentences, and draw on a large vocabulary does not make you a good storyteller. Understanding character goals, pacing, tension, suspense, drama, theme, tone, and so on and so forth - that is what makes a good storyteller.

That said, there's no way to know where you lie exactly unless you post some of your work for us to see.

edited 18th Aug '14 6:57:07 AM by Tungsten74

Contests aren't a very good way to determine if your writing is good, because they're contests — they aren't looking for "good", they're looking for "the best". Either what you sent in is the best or nearly the best, or it's just down in the pack with 95% of all the other entries.

Really depends on how strict the contests were that he entered, and what kind of writing level they were expecting. They might have also been extremely popular contests with dozens, or even hundreds of entries, which would make the odds of winning a lot more unlikely. Or they might have been smaller, informal competitions, such as you might find on a writing forum, where the judges not only praised the good but also helpfully critiqued the bad, something that wouldn't be feasible in a bigger arena. Again, no way to tell without more information.

Basically, I'd rather not encourage the OP to shun all contests unconditionally. Given the right circumstances, they can be useful avenues for new writers to get critique and advice on how to improve, and serve as a valuable yardstick by which one can measure their skills. Hell, I already sorta admire Ksawarrior just for having the confidence to put his work out there to be judged, even after failing multiple times.

edited 18th Aug '14 7:40:50 AM by Tungsten74

Oh, I'm not saying contests are bad. I'm simply saying don't use whether you win or lose contests as the yardstick to measure whether your writing is good or bad. (see Award Snub, for instance)

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Lunen

That's what I entered.

http://www.amazon.com/Lunen-Triblood-Volume-Ahmed-Al-Sheikh/dp/1479359718

There's the amazon page.

I've entered it so many times, only one contest gave me any feedback, and the judge sounded like he hates sci-fantasy regardless.

Your Amazon page does contain a substantial sample of your writing. I would say your first page has the wrong kind of set-up: Too much exposition, not enough action, setting description, or character introduction. You spend a lot of time describing the situation your main character is in, but very little describing how she feels about it. Without going overboard, your first page would be improved with a more detailed depiction of some outward manifestations of your protag's feelings: hand shaking as she holds the phone, that sort of thing. It would also be helpful if you described the room in such a way that it reflects her inner feelings about the situation she is in: something about the room could appear threatening to her, or dark. Or it could symbolize how she sees her father: hard and unyielding. Finally, we learn very little about her father, sister or roommate. With regard to the roommate, you should slow down, take some time and allow the two girls to interact with each other, or share a memory your protag has from her childhood, or something along those lines which would allow us to see them interacting with each other.

As an aside, do you have character sheets for each of them? A lot of authors find it helpful to write down things that two characters have in common and that set them apart which are likely to come out in any dialogue between them. It isnt mandatory or anything, but you might find it helpful.

I would foreshadow the transition to the new scene, since it seems like a major step in the plot. Maybe she senses something unusual or uncanny as she leaves her dorm (some sort of weirdness involving the moon would do the trick, since you mention it again later on). However, the quick temporary shift in perspective from your protag to one of the new characters is a little bit confusing and interrupts the flow of the narrative. I would keep it to the protag's pov if you can. Also, what happened to the guy who had been carrying her? He seems to have just disappeared from the story.

The fight scene is over too quickly, and, well, just isnt that exciting. There isnt any drama because it's obvious the new character is going to win it easily. It would be better if the new character didnt seem so confident, and if his opponents acted as if they thought they could win. As it is, there isnt any suspense. Make it look like it could go either way.

That's what I see upon a quick first read. All that said, you are a good writer, your style flows pretty smoothly and you do a decent job at dialogue, and providing your characters with clear motivations. You're just making the same sort of mistakes all beginning writers make, so dont let this get you down. Keep working at this, there is a lot of potential for improvement. I would look forward to reading the next draft of this story.

edited 18th Aug '14 4:48:34 PM by demarquis

I read some of your story.

It is written well in the sense that there are no typos and every sentence is clear and makes sense. It is written poorly in how the plot has been done a thousand times over, the title is stereotypical, the characters have no real spark of life, and the writing does not compensate.

There is an enormous amount of telling that makes this story boring.

Think of readers as detectives. Low-level detectives who need a lot of details but get really mad when they are simply told how a character feels. Instead of saying "Jennifer Pike whispered in her best reassuring voice", you need to show that Jennifer is reassuring. "Jen whispered, putting a warm hand on Winnie's shoulder and squeezing" would be better.

You also gave a pretty blatant infodump in the beginning that was exposition, another form of telling. "Winnie had shoulder length brown hair. Her father was a doctor. She was afraid of telling her father about her bad grades." Come on. This isn't a lecture. This is a story.

Think of it as a film. A documentary, rather. Instead of having an opening narration (or an opening scroll of text) that details exactly how these characters are related, show scenes where these things are revealed in a natural way. "Jen used her key to Winnie's dorm holding a bucket of ice cream", not "Jen had been friends with Winnie since high school."

Some telling is all right, even acceptable, if there is at least an engaging voice. "The unicorn lived in a lilac wood, and she lived all alone" is a double whammy of exposition and telling, but it is so intriguing that people just forgive it.

The voices, for both narration and characters, are not engaging enough for readers to forgive anything.

Find a voice. Preferably a voice close to your own. Or something close to your favorite author, if you absolutely must. To do that, you need to you need to forget everything you ever learned about English grammar.

The sentences are all written well if you are looking at an essay. They are neither short or long. They all start reasonably with subjects, objects, and nouns. Right now, it looks like a bunch of bricks in a wall. It's okay for walls and technical writing. But readers don't want walls. They want a road. With interesting scenery.

Listen to people talk for help on individual character voices. They don't like this. Break up the sentences. Leave some incomplete. Put run ons somewhere. Just do something to make it less boring.

edited 18th Aug '14 5:42:33 PM by Leradny

I didn't make it to wherever the fight scene was, because the first page (I think? I read the sample on my phone) turned me off a LOT.

The father demanding his older daughter abort her pregnancy just so she could finish her studies is far past strict or overbearing to me—that's emotional and financial abuse, since she rightly refuses to do it and he cuts her off from the rest of her money. She's engaged and she's a grown woman, not a sixteen-year-old who has no clue about sex! Most people would at least try to consider that they have a grandchild on the way and they would be very happy about the prospect. Plus, don't most colleges have health centers and daycares for their students with children? Why didn't she tell the police or a staff member about her father? A lot of my college classmates have children and they're perfectly fine in school. Hell, they actually do BETTER than most people because they're motivated to do well for their kids.

A lot of new writers make the plot mistake of having everything happen in a vacuum, where only the main characters have major influence on things. It's not a bad thing, just a newbie-thing. Just remember this question: "Would I call the police or a trusted confidante for this situation?" If you would, then your characters most likely would.

And in contrast to another poster, I don't think your sentences flow at all. They're not very long, but they FEEL long because there's so much telling. "Winifred brushed her shoulder-length, wavy auburn hair out of the way of glasses that made her blue eyes seem unimpressive." That's really clunky, and I feel like it's leading to Suetiful All Along—solely from the phrase "seemed unimpressive." I thought, "Red hair and blue eyes? I bet she looks like Sansa Stark, the beauty of the North." If you intended that, this is a bad sign because I'll just roll my eyes when she gets dolled up or someone says she's gorgeous. If you didn't intend that, it's still a bad sign because you accidentally gave your readers the wrong impression.

I'd advise to cut out maybe half your details, adverbs, and anything else that pertains to description. This might sound weird, especially with most people going "show, don't tell," but if you cut out details, you can 1) focus on the story, 2) figure out which details are most important, and 3) find out your style/voice so you can possibly put the other details back in.

Your style reads like a grammar textbook because, well, you don't really have one yet. For example, Tolkien or another classic/epic-fantasy writer would write the same action as "A leaf-red lock glimmered betwixt blue eyes and moon-shaped glasses, and Winifred flung it back amongst fellow waves." I'd write the action as, "Something flutters into Winifred's face, blue eyes going hazy—and then she brushes an auburn lock out of her glasses." A very terse writer would go "Her glasses go auburn, so she brushes a loose wave away." Same details, vastly different ways of using them.

As mentioned before, grammatical soundness or solid sentence structure rarely means good writing. Sometimes, perfect technical writing is actually bad for the story because it sucks out the mode and imagery. Storytelling depends a lot on subjective things like style, mood, and tone, and those can often vary by genre. Read lots of novels, both good and bad—the first is obvious, and the second will give you an idea of what to avoid. Unfortunately, it seems a good portion of writing can't actually be taught. Most creative writing classes don't teach you how to write, they teach you to develop your own voice/style and expose you to different styles. A lot of good writers have an intuitive grasp of imagery and tone, and they just learn the skills to do it reliably.

Technically you've already published it, but you can always edit it for at least one or two drafts, and (unless I'm mistaken) maybe republish it. Writing involves lots of rewriting.

edited 18th Aug '14 8:30:22 PM by Sharysa

Okay... 1. I hate how Amazon did the sample. It's only like a half of the first chapter, and doesn't really help sell the book. 2. This isn't a first draft. It's been through about 8 beta readers and one pro editor.

Still, if it really came across as that amateurish, maybe it's time to hang it up and try something else

Not at all. It's just time to step up your game and challenge yourself to improve. Get some people who you trust that you know will pull no punches and let them have at your next story. Think about clichés and why you use them, then learn how to write without them. If you can recognise or come to recognise the flaws in your own writing then you will be able to improve.

did all that, and the result is what I published.

So yeah.

Ah, if it went through nine edits by other people, no wonder it has no individual voice. That and how you've just given up means you don't trust yourself at all, and that's no way to approah writing.

Try writing a journal with no editing, not even for typos or capitals. Gain confidence in yourself as an individual. Develop your own voice, then come back to writing.

never said it went through nine edits by other people. They read, gave me thoughts or questions, and I handled it. The only voice on it is mine.

And I used to believe in my work. Especially when it would sell and I'd get good reviews. The main reason I started this discussion was to figure out what I'm lacking that's keeping me from winning contests.

And since so far, everyone here essentially told me that after years of writing, refining and hard work, my stuff is so bad that it's on par with a first draft, even when it's not, that's why I'm thinking of quitting.

Even years among years of writing, character development and plotting, people can still churn out..."mediocrity."

But instead of hanging up your hat, take what people are criticizing, and make it less painful. Bad reviews doesn't mean a point for quitting, it's a diving board to make sure you don't splash water everywhere.

There is such a thing as talent, but it's an over-rated phenomenon. Being a good writer is 90% practice.

edited 19th Aug '14 7:22:17 AM by imadinosaur

"And since so far, everyone here essentially told me that after years of writing, refining and hard work, my stuff is so bad that it's on par with a first draft, even when it's not, that's why I'm thinking of quitting."

Yep, and you know what? every writer gets that. I got that feedback, I wager everyone here did. Your writing has to suck before it can get better. And it's a lifetime commitment. Sorry, my friend, but that's just the way writing works. Your style isnt any worse than that of anyone else when they got started. George Martin was as bad as you when he wrote his first novel. So dont get depressed, get busy. We are all waiting for your next improved draft of the first couple of pages.

It's not that we don't respect how hard you worked, it's that you worked on the wrong things. Like I said, it's technically written well, you just need to take it to the next level by working on strengthening your own voice and figuring out your own little quirks to make yourself stand out.

To do this you need to do writing exercises that break you out of technical writing and into creativity. Try writing a scene where you don't use capital letters, or restrict sentences to five words or less, or use line breaks instead of punctuation.

Also, the trick to believing in yourself is continuing to do so even when people give bad reviews.

I have at least four notebooks full of old writing that nobody touches. Not even me.

And on FF.Net, I have a couple of old fanfics hiding amidst my more developed works (haven't deleted them because I forgot or I've just been busy). Every time a favorite/review crops up for those stories once a year or so, I just ignore it and hope it goes away.

As for editing, I have to wonder what kind of editors you had to not notice your mistakes after nine drafts. Editors need to know the components of good writing, bad writing, and new writing as much as writers do.

And as reactions go, I'm glad you had a pretty normal one to our feedback. You didn't throw a hissy fit and whine that you might kill all your characters because you're soooooo depressed, like Stephenie Meyer. Everyone feels like you're feeling at some point.

Here's the thing about writing- it's one of the most subjective things out there, and one of the hardest things to get right. I don't really know if there's such thing as a good writer or bad writer exactly.

Ulysses is considered one of the greatest novels of all time. Except it has 4864 one-star reviews on Goodreads and it's hated by many serious critics. But the people who hated it, their opinions aren't wrong, or stupid, or worthless, they're completely valid opinions and you can't get hung up on a few bad reviews. Twilight is huge, even though it has a lot of problems. Is Stephenie Meyer a bad writer? On a technical level, probably yes, but then, on the other hand, she's managed to capture so many people with the story she told, which I have to admit, does make her good. So what I'm trying to say is writing can't be easily organized. There's no objectively good books and bad books. You can't base your whole outlook on what other people think, whether that's contest judges or the people on here.

But you CAN take advice, because your writing will never be perfect. Mainly because it's all so subjective. What's perfect to one person is boring and downright stupid to another person, and that means you're always working towards this completely unachievable goal as you write. All you can do is keep practising, and keep getting better and better. Your writing isn't perfect. Never will be. But don't give up on it, especially if you enjoy it. You've got good reviews on Amazon for a reason, and you should be proud of that. What people are saying here doesn't take away from that, it just means that you can get even better. Like everyone can.

In ten years or so, you'll probably have more novels written, and more experience, and be far more skilled at writing than you are now, and like most writers who look back on old work, you won't be majorly impressed by this stuff. Not because it's bad, but because in ten years time, the stuff you'll be producing will be even better. In twenty years time, you'll probably hate the stuff you'll do in ten years time. It'll keep going on and on and on, as you get better and better and better.

Remember writers are supposed to face rejection and criticism. It's what nearly every writer has in common, whether it's James Joyce or Stephenie Meyer. You're a real writer now, congrats! But seriously, there's no point worrying, because you're better than you were years ago. You're worse than you'll be in years to come. Keep writing, listen to advice, decide what advice to follow and you'll get better. And people don't really have lots of criticism for you on here, more advice, just to find an individual voice and work on some of the phrasing. That's not really bad, especially since they're focusing on the negatives, because you can't exactly improve a positive.

Oh God, I'm after getting a bit rambly, but hopefully you get the point. If you had the patience to read all that, because I don't think I would have. XD Anyway, you aren't a bad writer, you just aren't perfect. Obviously, because no one is. People aren't trying to knock you, just help you get even better, because with those positive reviews on Amazon, you're clearly doing something right.

OP if you want to improve your writing substantially, do this:

Pick out particularly well-written passages from 10 different authors of multiple genres and time periods. Copy each one by hand, word for word, and read them aloud while you do this.

You'll notice things about different styles that you dislike, and you'll notice overall trends that you do like. It will bring you a lot closer to understanding the relationships words have with their meanings and to each other that you wouldn't by simply reading the passages.

It's a very helpful exercise.

Also, I don't think the writing sample on Amazon is enough to be able to judge your overall abilities as a whole. Do you have a finished short story or something you could post? I say this because written works can have varying levels of quality throughout the piece (LOTR comes to mind here) and there are always going to be good parts alongside the bad. A focus on eliminating weaknesses only leads to mediocrity, but an identification of strengths and a thorough, intimate knowledge of what kind of phrases and characterizations and sequences of events work and feel like they naturally belong is what will make you better.

edited 19th Aug '14 7:43:44 PM by Thelostcup

http://ahmedalsheikh.tumblr.com/post/61479030713/lunen-chapter-1-preview

The complete chapter that the sample cut off.

http://www.amazon.com/Wandering-Djinn-Anthology-Ahmed-Al-Sheikh-ebook/dp/B0037HORMK/ref=la_B0085381VO_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400948030&sr=1-2

This one will be free to download for kindle Saturday.