Captain America: Winter Soldier

It's not really an Ass Pull because the possibility of Coulson's survival was already hinted at in the first Avengers film. When Maria Hill called out Fury on the cards being in Coulson's locker instead of his pocket, much of the fanbase took that to mean that Coulson had wholly survived Loki stabbing him.

The biggest reveal about Coulson's survival wasn't the fact that he's alive, but that he did, in fact, die when Loki stabbed him. I mean, hell, Coulson being alive was even featured prominently in the advertising and trailers for the first episode of the show; that he is alive is not a surprise to anyone at this point. I fail to see how Fury's magic drug that stops his heart but doesn't kill him in Winter Soldier is any less of an Ass Pull than "Fury lies about things," especially when we've already established that he was lying in that scene.

edited 4th May '14 3:54:55 PM by TobiasDrake

The circumstances of Fury's lie are pretty tenuous - the main reason we know he was lying about Coulson's death is because even soon after the movie came out we had hints that there was more to it. In the film itself, however, it by all appearances that he was lying about the circumstances of Coulson's death (that is, where his cards were when he "died"), not the fact that he died in the first place.

The impression in the way the scene is framed is that Coulson died, but Fury felt that wasn't enough and decided to add details to make the tragedy impact the Avengers more - and I definitely remember that between the time that the film was released and we did get some concrete hints, the idea that Coulson was still alive was common but still generally seen as wishful thinking. It wasn't really something that's made self-evident by that scene.

edited 4th May '14 4:24:37 PM by KnownUnknown

Fugu fish poison really does do that in a small dose. Its the thing behind the zombie myth in voodoo. What a practitioner would do would be to put a bit of poison in an unsuspecting victim's meal. Then the victim would be buried like that for about a month then dug up. The combination of the drug and lack of oxygen would leave the victim in a semi catatonic state. The 'zombie' would then be used for slave labor and now you know.

It doesn't need to be self-evident by the scene. Hill's line about the location of the cards is a Plot Device Schrodingers Box; it could be reasonably stated that Coulson is alive or dead based on her line and anything else that comes to pass in the future. Her line shifted Coulson from "Dead" to "Probably dead, but it wouldn't be surprising if he came back down the road" status.

Her line doesn't say that Coulson is alive, but allows him to reasonably return without it being an Ass Pull, or he can stay gone forever and her line can just be about the extra push. It is simultaneously both, until directly observed to be one or the other. Amusingly, Agents ultimately observed the line to be the latter, but it can still function as the former for people who haven't seen the series.

edited 4th May '14 4:41:41 PM by TobiasDrake

Finally saw the movie.

I have no clue why this movie is called 'The Winter Soldier' when he didn't... factor into the core plot as much as I'd expect of a Title Character. I mean, assuming the sequel is 'Steve goes to save Bucky', then wouldn't that be more logically 'The Winter Soldier'. Also, I expected a better reason for him to have that title than simply 'He's Russian'... Or a Russian Spy as it would be.

The action sequences got a bit drawn out too much. The high points of the movie are character interaction; like Natasha and Steve in the Mall. I liked seeing how they operated together.

The low points were SOME of the fight scenes, like the Highway and etc. I though the early one With Nick trying to escape the car was a good one because it showed a character thinking on his feet and I was trying to figure out what he was planning. Scenes where its just 'X and Y fight for 10 mins of script' weren't all that great.

I do wish there was something to do with Peggy. I feel like there's something more to be done there, but I can't figure out what since she has dementia. I feel like there's something there.... but idk what...

'Winter Soldier' doesn't necessarily mean Russian, I think.

The Winter soldier is just one aspect of the villain's larger plans, but 'Winter Soldier' is a cooler subtitle, and it gives the evil plot emotional stakes for Steve.

Plus the whole Russian Winter Soldier thing was only in the comics, the movie appropriated it here as a Red Herring by HYDRA to make people in the intelligence community think he was a Russian assassin (the Red Star on the metal arm, talking in Russian, the bullets used to kill Fury etc.) so when he did their dirty work people wouldn't attribute it to HYDRA.

It was also a red herring title. Comic fans were rolling their eyes thinking the big secret twist was supposed to be Bucky's identity, which all the trailers and promos fed into, when in reality the twist was something much bigger and much more unexpected.

Still...I feel like making your entire title a red herring might have been a bit much.

Another aspect I liked, we didn't see him in his Capn. America suit as much. This movie was far more about Steve Rogers than Capn. America. And I liked that.

Also, Bucky is frozen between missions, so he's like a literal "Winter" soldier.

You know, I don't think Cap has a dual identity or fake persona when he's Captain America. Pretty sure he's just a really good person all the time. The costume is just there to look awesome. Heck, he probably barely needs any armor thanks to the serum.

EDIT: HOW DO PEOPLE NOT KNOW THAT SPOILER ALREADY? IT'S FROM THE COOOOOOOOOMICSSSSSS!*shakes fist at the heavens*

edited 5th May '14 5:00:45 AM by spashthebandragon

Tag it, dammit!

Dude, it's not even a spoiler. Marvel talked openly about it before the movie came out.

Really? Sorry then. I never heard anything before watching this film.

The Captain America is a catchy stage name and the suit is just armor. No real reason for a US Soldier to have a secret identity.

The title wasn't a red herring. While the Winter Soldier plotline does wind up being Overshadowed by Awesome with the Hydra reveal, it's still there, and the Winter Soldier himself is still a major aspect of the Hydra plotline. Naming it The Winter Soldier was about as close to the events of the movie as they could get without spoiling the true Reveal in the title; they couldn't exactly call the movie Captain America: Hydra's Back and still expect people to be surprised.

The advertising for Winter Soldier managed to preserve much of the film's story and mystery while still creating suspense and interest by focusing all of their attention on a subplot that ties into the greater story, rather than explaining all the twists of the movie right there in the trailer. The name is just part of that. It's not entirely accurate about what the true focus of the film is, but it's not a lie either.

edited 5th May '14 7:30:37 AM by TobiasDrake

It's also a catchy subtitle and I think we had come up with just as good ones a few pages ago

Finally saw Winter Soldier yesterday. Yeah I'm going to go ahead and say that it's the best of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Struck the right chord in between humor and drama, great pacing, all the actors had fantastic chemistry. The only off point I would say is Falcon still fighting that guy even after the climax was pretty Narmy.

How so? Also, Cap was still fighting, that "Narmy" too?

Mainly because we weren't as invested in Falcon's fight. It was just to give him something to do after after being grounded.

I thought it was okay. Reminded us that the plot wasn't over just because the superweapon de jour was dealt with. That plots sometimes aren't neatly tied up, which is reinforced because the Winter Bucky escapes and isn't definitively on the side of angels. Hydra is still out there and still a huge threat, even without Project Insight. And even Rumlow is still kicking, albeit weakly, after having a building dropped on him.

So in that sense, I think it works.

"Captain America," is just an excuse for never promoting the guy.

Ehhhh... I still feel like whatever third film that they're really setting themselves up for would more logically be called The Winter Solider than this film. Sure, its a catchy subtitle, and not saying it couldn't have been used else where, but this title feels like it doesn't capture the driving plot of the film.

Idk. I can be anal about titles for things. God knows how many times title of games like 'Alice: Madness Returns' have bothered me for either being too Exactly What It Says On The Tin or just simply not capturing the spirit of the work. Maybe its just me.

I was actually far more invested in Sam's climatic fight than Steve's.

Falcon really grabbed my attention in that movie.

This. Exactly this.

The denouement Falcon v. Rumlow and Cap v. Winter Soldier fights help establish the idea that the Death Star may have got all blowed up and the Emperor dead, but the war is far from over, because there are still a lot of people to carry on the fight. Rather than all the Chitauri spontaneously dying to show that the battle is definitively over, the film ends with the knowledge that the enemy is still out there, still dangerous, and there's more hardship and struggle still to come.

One battle was won. The war rages on.

edited 5th May '14 9:01:47 AM by TobiasDrake

I know it won't happen but I kind of want a Falcon movie now. I thought he had a pretty good showing and I'd like his history prior to this movie explored a bit more.

edited 5th May '14 9:09:08 AM by Kostya