Combat-Writing Thread

You can certainly use that as one reason for this thread, although discussion is going to be much more general than that. It may not be adequate, however, since invariably a fighting force is a reflection of the political system and the society that forms its ranks. You can't expect to organize, say, a modern-style army in a Medieval context. The average Medieval monarch had neither the political nor the financial resources to upkeep a large, full-time fighting force, and indeed one of the main pressures behind the birth of the Leviathan—the change from the weak central state of Feudalism to the strong central state of the Absolutist era, the transition from knight to infantryman—was the evolution of the state to more efficiently gather resources to upkeep larger, more professional armies.

I meant something like the villain, hero, and nation critique threads.

Again. It's one reason for this thread. It certainly fits here, and readers are encouraged to posit their own models for armed forces, but the very topic of a military is quite complex: you cannot discuss a military without bringing in the society and the political structure that underpins it, meaning that such topics will have to be discussed as well. For instance, a divided feudal agrarian society choked with fortifications, like Medieval European Christendom, cannot be expected to support, say, a horseborne army of nomadic archers like the Mongol hordes, or the standardized, disciplined legions of Rome.

Plus, you're building a model army, and models aren't much good unless you compare them to reality. Military history has plenty of examples to compare the model to, so there will be a definite historical bent to the critiques.

I should add, though. Don't make a list of tropes for your model military. It's not helpful and won't do much good.

edited 28th Jul '15 5:05:39 PM by SabresEdge

This is really supposed to be about "Combat Writing". Perhaps you could create a new thread for the discussion of armies and organized combat from a world-building perspective.

I'd say it would fall in the purview of the thread, since I did intend for the thread to cover the scale from the tactical all the way up to the strategic and grand-strategic. How an army would be built and how it would function would be included in that, especially since such topics often become critical strengths or weaknesses at the point of fire.

I did make a thread like that and got pointed here.

My gut says what De Marquis said, but it's Sabre's Edge's thread so if he says this is the place for it then that's that!

I'd be willing to start us off by providing stuff for critique, albeit only if I could figure out how to remove "identifying" information from the things in question^note I've become far more leery recently of copyright pitfalls and the "previously published" threshold...

edited 1st Aug '15 5:02:33 AM by Flanker66

Did you write it?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

If you're asking if I'm actually writing A Thing In Which These Elements Are Used^note Teutonic capitals ho!, then yes. Albeit I'm not making much progress.

If you're asking if I came up with the stuff myself, although it draws heavily on real life techniques, the answer is also "yes".

Then why do you need to remove identifying information? You want people to know it's yours.

Because if I don't, I fear that if some day I'm crazy enough to try to publish it the publisher will claim that it's previously published since elements appeared online. I'd never put down excerpts from the novel itself, but I wouldn't be surprised if even elements might be enough to get it classified as previously published. Paranoid or overreacting? Probably. But I've heard horror stories about this sort of thing.

Jesus. What stories are these? Can publishers really pull that card where two random ideas can be too similar to count as original work?

I think he means that if he posts excerpts here, no one will ever agree to publish it because it will be considered "previously published". Most publishers wont pull that if you merely post short excerpts (the point is that people wont pay for a published version if they can just read it online. But if you only post short sections from it, that wont hurt anyone future sales, so it should be alright).

De Marquis is right. It's relevant here because I'm assuming that concepts might also contribute to the threshold of "previously published" - that is, if I write about specific concepts^note For example: rather than "just" a basic, non-specific description of a character, their full name, role in the plot, etc. it may be judged to make the work previously published.

Therefore, I would like to provide things for critique here (lord knows I'm far from perfect on combat stuff), but unless I can figure out how to make it non-specific enough to hopefully be kosher I'm in a bit of a bind.

Not exactly sure if this is relevant: it sure is about warfare, though.

Okay, I got a 15th century kingdom that is a bit larger than modern day France and has very fertile ground and relatively stable government.

Would it make sense for the kingdom to be able to mass up 50k infantry when the total population is about 15 million?

That's less than 0.5%, which is the usual standing army of a nation.

Fifty thousand infantry, no other qualifications, no other branches? Sure. I don't know if it would be a good idea, though.

It seems reasonable to me, considering that apparently armies of that period weren't very large at all.

Flanker66, I think you're over-worrying about it. I really doubt that a short excerpt here will prevent your entire work from being published.

Okay, so 50k infantryman out of 15 million population is a reasonable number. Other questions:

What would be the maximum, reasonable infantrymen one can muster in that population? The kingdom is above average in wealth and resources by that period's standard.

Also, what about cavalrymen? What would be a reasonable figure?

Sounds like you need this website, my friend.

Tealdeer: 20% of the average population is a good guess for most armies. Your country would probably have a maximum of 3 million total, with maybe 5-10% of that being (presumably) elite, wealthy cavalrymen. So you're looking at the maximum of a 3mil army with 150,000-300,000 cavalry, assuming an average spread of healthy able-bodied men, no draft dodging, good training, no reluctant lords keeping their troops at home, and that they don't have to build warfare around the farming season.

edited 2nd Aug '15 12:24:28 AM by Sharysa

Remember, back then "professional" soldiers were mercenaries or nobles and their retainers. The commoners or those who served their local nobles were drawn up "as needed". The in-ranks inspection is a hold over from the time that nobles had to see if their soldiers had their weapons and their armor (such as it was) was in good repair.

Despite what fiction would tell you (Game Of Thrones I'm looking in your direction..) mercs were a necessity. Many profession soldiers became lords themselves, others were the key to an army's victory. The Swiss were so famous and so badass that a treaty was made to keep them away from the rest of Europe and put them in charge of guarding the Pope.

If you're able to do that, you're basically Prussia in the 1700s. This is where political institutions become important: a modern nation-state, where "the king commands and we obey" (as the song would have it), is able to sustain many more troops than a Medieval polity, because it is more able to mobilize its wealth and its population. Basically, warfare had gotten so expensive polities were forced to evolve or die, and "evolution" here meant "ability to wage war given the resources you have", with the centralized nation-state winning that race over the decentralized feudal system.

For an extreme example, decentralized Poland-Lithuania in 1781 was only able to get a 1:472 ratio in terms of soldiers to adult population. France was 1:153, Austria 1:90, Russia 1:49, and Prussia an astounding 1:26; not for nothing was Prussia known as "an army with a country", and it couldn't sustain that number for long after Frederick the Great passed away. Now, Poland is an extreme case—by 1781 it was all but a Russian client state, and the Russians made sure to cripple its effectiveness—but it should give you some ideas. Note that states in 1781 tended to be immeasurably richer and more powerful than states in the 1500s or earlier, with huge advancements in administration and technology; note also that these are standing armies, which most Medieval polities would've been unable to sustain.

Alright,so in my setting there's this great empire about a third of the size of the continental US and with a population of about a 100 million. Its technological level is roughly mid-15th century Europe to early 16th century Europe. It is not really a feudal state as the high nobility, the landed ones, do not rule over the land they've been granted, instead just are allowed a certain percentage of the income from that land, and to vote in the Senate on new laws and other such proposals which the Emperor/Empress then may sign or throw out.

Now, their military consists of a professional citizen army of 40 legions of 6000 men. Anyone who is a citizen from all walks of life may become a soldier, but only nobles may become officers.
The legion is organized around the 100-man company led by a captain as the standard tactical unit.
There's: 25 heavy infantry companies, 10 heavy cavalry companies, 13 crossbow companies, 7 arquebus companies, 3 scout/skirmisher companies and 2 engineering/siege/artillery companies.

The hierarchy from bottom to top is: Legionnaire<Tent Senior (10 Legionnaires)<Junior-Captain (Captains 2nd in command and aide)<Captain (10 tents)<Major (up to 5 captains)<Constable (A service branch, infantry, cavalry etc etc)<Marshal (Entire Legion)<Grand Marshal (5 Marshals, only high nobility may hold this position)<Emperor/Empress

Is this reasonable?

edited 2nd Aug '15 2:49:32 AM by Clawthewolf

(Sorry to interrupt you, Claw, I just have some leftover questions)

This talk about mercenaries reminded me:

In Medieval Europe, where exactly do you find mercenaries? Is there any particular position in official military who goes and find and recruit mercenaries?