HGW XX/7
In that case, I advise the US to first design a hypersonic missile, and then sell it and missile boats to all of China's neighbours. Do the same thing the Chinese and Soviets did: if you fire enough, one will get through.
edited 17th Apr '14 7:03:47 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei
You mean the Harpoon? Or this one
?
edited 17th Apr '14 7:18:15 PM by demarquis
rollin' on dubs
More like this one the advanced hypersonic weapon. Yeah the Chairforce has their X-51 but it needs work.
China has their DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile. That's why South Korea and Japan are nervous. And looking at THAAD.
I don't culminate!
I'm sure missiles play a part in maritime disputes, but really, why is it only appropriate to fear China about it, when other people in the region have played the navy game for a longer time?
Same as usual.... Wing it.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Because China has the economy and population to engage in a long-term dispute/conflict?
As Napoleon said: "China is a sleeping giant. Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will move the world."
Some people don't like to see the world moved, so to speak.
rollin' on dubs
India wants to be a part of the international community. Yeah they have that "Hatfields vs. Mc Coy's" thing with Pakistan, but at least India will listen to the UN and the west. South Korea has to contain the North, but again, they are more interested in trade than "empire". Ditto Japan. Despite their right wing, most Japanese people and their leadership don't want to stir things up. Vietnam, the Philippines, Indonesia et al. They are willing to listen when the US and the UN say "Play nice and share the ocean".
Taiwan is a special case, considering that, to China, it's a "renegade province". Taiwan just wants trade and to exist. China either can't afford to let it go (they have other separatist movements on the mainland) or they don't want another player in the Pacific.
China is the giant in the playground. A large airforce, a blue water navy larger than Australia and closer to it's supply than the US navy. Why listen when it can simply muscle it's way around? What is the US going to do?
The PLA Air Force can fly around with bases protected by a good SAM cover. The PLA Navy is a match for their neighbors and is slowing matching Australia's. With a carrier, anti-ship TBM's and a bomber force, they are strong enough to be a veary real threat to the US Pacific Command.
China doesn't have to listen. They don't like attending the meetings where the diplomats talk and talk. With those forces they don't have to. They can overmatch their neighbors and make the US think twice about "sending in the Marines". At least that's how they see it.
All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48
I don't culminate!
No, that's how you see it. You're making China up to be a collective non-conformist, which strikes me as puzzling. If so, why join WTO? Why all the diplomatic contracts with other nations? It just has different imperatives compared to the USA alliance. Plus, China has a large coast line. When you live in a world where nuclear missiles can be launched from submarines, it's naturally necessary for a pre-emptive naval force to be established. A carrier is a gesture. Merely a gesture. It has peaceful applications and doesn't have to be loaded with simply fighter jets.
And as for Taiwan, you're mistaken. Lately there's a fuss created by some Taiwan students who oppose a bill that gives Taiwan all the long ends and China the short ones. Those students took it as China's way of putting a leash around it. There's a dissonance.
edited 18th Apr '14 4:27:36 PM by Culminus
Same as usual.... Wing it.
At the risk of this verging towards the off-topic zone, let's keep this in mind:
Might Makes Right. China getting a carrier is a way to project their newfound force to the world in general and Asia in particular. Such a demonstration of power is a way to give the impression that they'll have the upper hand on almost every negotiation (and that includes trade agreements, fishing agreements and so on).
Let's not bring the Taiwanese protests that happened a few days ago. It's off-topic.
I don't culminate!
I'll try not to, unless the subject is brought up.
Anyway, I doubt there's any more upper hand to be had. I think that the western bloc is being unnecessary paranoid and pre-emptive about China's current naval force. Before long, unless the fearmongering is stopped, there will be more conspiracy theories. I believe that no one wants to use force when it comes to the fishing isles or other stuff. No one wants one counterattack that leads to another, only to cause a great war afterwards.
Same as usual.... Wing it.
Show an affirming flame
Nobody wants to be caught up in an escalation spiral, but nobody wants to be forced to back down, either. It could happen that circumstances and wild rhetoric end up backfiring horribly and forcing a country further down the path than they'd prefer, so the risk of war is still there. It's not 1914 redux by any stretch, but neither is it completely peaceful.
That said, the issue isn't China getting a carrier—this is their equivalent of the old USS Langley, a tech demonstrator and trainer rather than an operational carrier. It's fairly natural that China would want some way to project force locally in a maritime dispute; it's equally natural that the rest of the countries in the area would want to balance against it. Realpolitik isn't good or bad, it just is.
Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
rollin' on dubs
China joined the WTO because it has interests outside of Asia.
The whole "China being a bully" really doesn't make any sense. They are a large market and have both the tech and the money to make more money in the Pacific. Chinese firms would be rich beyond the dreams of avarice because someone has to mine and fish all that wealth out.
But no, they are more willing to bully their neighbors. Their Second Artillery Corps points thousands of missiles at Taiwan. The DF-21 anti-carrier missile? That's a threat at the US Navy.
It'd be cheaper to talk really. Instead the PLA leadership talks about seizing island from Japan and they extend their "Air Defense Zone" into the open ocean.
China is Yandere with Taiwan because: A) politcs, B) seperatist movements c) all of the above.
If they cut Taiwan loose they'd win instead of acting like a psycho ex-boyfriend.
All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48
わからない
Exactly. No one wants anyone to use force to seize the Senkakus and Spratlys. That's why there is no precedence at all of a big country seizing territory from its smaller neighbor by "allowing" armed personnel that are merely volunteers equipped with the latest assault rifles and using one of the more modern APCs to move in into that territory...Oh, wait.
edited 18th Apr '14 6:29:19 PM by entropy13
I'm reading this because it's interesting. I think. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.
HGW XX/7
They've also never made any attempt to justify their nine-dash line to the UN or any other body - and, indeed, they can't.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
V
China seizes Japanese cargo ship over pre-war debt
It said the seizure related to unpaid compensation for two Chinese ships leased in 1936. The Chinese ships were later used by the Japanese army and sank at sea, Japan's Kyodo news agency said.
Well, shit...
It's damages awarded by a Chinese court against a specific Japanese shipping company. Not sure why it has taken this long...
Damn, that's 26 years, did they accounted for inflation?
わからない
China's Next Land Grab
Obama visits Asia as U.S. allies look for a response to Chinese aggression.
Second Thomas Shoal sits some 125 miles off the western coast of the Philippines, one of more than 750 rocks, reefs and islets known as the Spratly Islands. Today it is the site of China's boldest attempt to forcibly exert sovereignty over the resource-rich, 1.35-million-square-mile South China Sea, through which one-third of all global maritime traffic passes.
Early last month Chinese ships blocked the Philippine military from resupplying its marines on the shoal, which is 700 miles from China's coast and has had a Philippine military presence since 1999. This marked an escalation in China's "cabbage strategy" of seizing Philippine territory by gradually surrounding it with layers of Chinese boats, from fishing vessels to coast guard patrols and warships.
Beijing's move essentially dares Manila to risk a shooting war whenever it resupplies or rotates its marines, as it last did on March 29. That time a Philippine supply ship successfully reached the shoal, having maneuvered past Chinese coast guard vessels at a distance of a few hundred dangerous meters. Manila's next supply run could come any day.
This is the latest in a string of Chinese provocations against the Philippines. In 2012, several hundred miles to the north, Beijing seized Scarborough Shoal after Philippine patrols had the temerity to try to arrest illegal Chinese fishermen. The U.S. brokered a June 2012 agreement for China and the Philippines to withdraw from Scarborough, but only Manila complied. Chinese ships have since used water cannons to keep Filipinos from fishing in the area.
In early 2013, the Philippines decided to challenge China's territorial claims through arbitration under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which both countries have signed. Furious at this appeal to a rules-based international order, Beijing responded by squeezing Second Thomas Shoal, demanding that Manila withdraw its marines and barring Philippine President Benigno Aquino from a trade fair in China unless he abandoned his call for arbitration. China blockaded the shoal last month as Manila was poised to submit its 4,000-page case to the U.N.
All of this constitutes a challenge to Washington. The U.S. and the Philippines signed a mutual-defense treaty in 1951, but Washington has signaled that it wouldn't cover a Chinese attack on Second Thomas Shoal, which falls within Manila's 200-mile Exclusive Economic Zone but wasn't claimed by Manila until 1978.
Visiting Manila in February, U.S. Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Jonathan Greenert answered a hypothetical question about China seizing Philippine-controlled territory in the Spratlys. "Of course we would help you," he said initially—before adding: "I don't know what that help would be specifically. I mean, we have an obligation because we have a treaty. But I don't know in what capacity that help is."
With statements like that from Washington, no wonder Beijing feels emboldened. At a press conference with U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel this month, Chinese Defense Minister General Chang Wonquan insisted that there would be "no compromise, no concessions" on territorial disputes with U.S. allies.
If Mr. Obama this week simply reaffirms the standard U.S. position of neutrality on sovereignty disputes and support for peaceful resolutions of differences, he will provide little reassurance to America's friends. More effective would be to directly question the legitimacy and origin of China's South China Sea claims, as State Department official Danny Russel recently did before Congress. The President might add that China's blockade of Second Thomas Shoal endangers the lives of Philippine forces and violates Beijing's promises under the 2002 Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea.
Like Russia in Eastern Europe, China is trying to rewrite the international order to dominate the Western Pacific. And like Vladimir Putin, Beijing's leaders will press their advantage against weaker powers unless America makes clear by word and deed that it will push back.
Link.
edited 22nd Apr '14 7:49:19 AM by entropy13
I'm reading this because it's interesting. I think. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.
A procrastination in of itself
Could subs be used for the resupply missions? I get that they can't carry that much but even if they were the kind that had to maintain some kind of surface presence wouldn't it be a lot easier to get past the Chinese ships?
edited 22nd Apr '14 8:09:40 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
rollin' on dubs
The Phillipines doesn't have subs. American and Australian subs can get past Chinese sub hunters, but not the neighbors. And they can't deliver much.
Subs were used in the past, but specially built ones. Those "milk cows" were to resupply diesel boats and they went away when most fleets went nuclear. Most subs are built around their weapons (or an airlock for spec-ops teams) and little else. It's better to use airlift but then again the Chinese would block that as well.
edited 22nd Apr '14 3:49:34 PM by TairaMai
All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48
I don't culminate!
Have fun enjoying even further isolation in China's naval cooperation, Obama. Not to mention, you just personally destroyed some opportunities by declaring that at a delicate moment.
Same as usual.... Wing it.
rollin' on dubs
We (the US) have to. China doesn't want to talk over issues like this. Traditionally they back down when the US gets involved. It will take longer because the PLA is stronger now than it was in The '90s.
The Real Reason China Wants Aircraft Carriers
It is not clear how many or what kind of carriers China will eventually build—whether they will more closely resemble Liaoning or be somewhat more modest in design, akin to U.S. Wasp-class amphibious assault ships. The former point China toward grander power projection missions; the latter toward the more immediate goal of establishing hegemony over its neighbors, many of whom have territorial disputes with China in the South and East China Seas. But it does appear that the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has the aircraft carrier “bug” and the implications for the United States are large, whichever course Beijing takes.
...
China is building the capability to project power from the sea in order to build its strength relative to its neighbors, primarily those with whom it has ongoing territorial seas claims (including Vietnam, the Philippines, and Japan). China does not need to build a navy as large or as powerful as the U.S. Navy in order to create fear and uncertainty among its neighbors. It only needs to build a navy with the credible means to project power over those neighbors’ shores.