Israel and Palestine

Do note that I was merely paraphrasing from vague memory, and from a post that wasn't mine.

... Wait, backtrack a second here... There are Christian religious extremists in the Arab-Israeli conflict's equation?! >_< Oh come on! As if two feuding sides with very entrenched bitterness was not enough...

PS: I already know there are Christian Arabs in Palestine, who share the Muslim Arabs' plight. Aljazeera had a nice documentary about that last year.

edited 2nd Mar '14 12:19:52 PM by MarqFJA

If they exist, either Yahweh or Allah is a master troll. I mean, setting up everyone's holy sites on the same damn rock, over the same damn cave, on the same damn hill, in the same damn city. That's got to be the divine equivalent of building rollercoasters to nowhere in Roller Coaster Tycoon.

But yeah; it's a clusterfuck.

That was definitely true of the labor governments and and the Begin governments that first built them in the 70s and 80s. But it was also the Begin government that uprooted the settlements in the Sinai Peninsula and Sharon, practically the father of the Gaza settlements, that uprooted those same settlements. The Labor governments hoped to give some of the territory back to Jordan, but even they were strongly against the idea of a Palestinian state until the 90s. In that regard Netanyahu is actually to the 'left' of Yitzhak Rabin, whose ideas were very limited autonomy for the PA and Israel keeping a lot of the West Bank for security reasons. Even now there are more right wing people who want Jordan to take over large parts of the West Bank because they think the PA cannot ensure stability or keep any peace. Construction of new settlements hasn't occurred in years. Nowadays construction is the expansion of existing settlements the way any town or city needs to expand to keep up with normal population growth.

The biggest question regarding the settlements right now is how serious Netanyahu was about the idea that some Jewish settlers would stay in a Palestinian state. If he meant it, then from his point of view the existence of a settlement does not mean Israel has to keep that territory. That would change things immensely, and make it so that Israel's only quibble would be with what lands it feels it needs to stop rockets from raining on Tel Aviv. Then the questions become how much power Naftali Bennett has and whether the PA could accept having Jews in Palestine, both big questions. Bennett right now is very confident that Abbas will say no to any peace treaty that leaves Israel in existence, so he is keeping relatively quiet and not threatening the coalition. And lets face it, Abbas does say very different things to his constituents than he does when talking to Israelis or peace brokers, which makes it very hard to know what he actually means.

@Achaemenid, the reason the same holy sites are holy to all 3 religions is because both Christianity and Islam have strong roots in Judaism. Moses, David, Elijah, and Jesus are holy figures to Muslims as well as to Christians (naturally Jesus doesn't do it for the Jews). In the case of the Al Aqsa Mosque the funny thing is that it technically isn't at the sight of the temple. It is on the southern end of the mount, while the Temple was around the middle, near the Dome of the Rock, which is nowhere near as holy to Muslims as Al Aqsa.

was going to respond but

Really these 3 religions have the most in common of any in the world.

I believe it has mostly if not entirely to do with their common lineage, compared to other religions. At least in our scriptures and traditions, we readily acknowledge said common descent.

...I wasn't being serious.

in that case, Sarcasm Mode is a helpful Pot Hole.

Doesn't take away from the sad fact that it is true: It is a clusterfuck. Don't agree on God being a troller, though.

edited 2nd Mar '14 1:19:36 PM by MarqFJA

According to Wikipedia

Purity seems to be beside the point; nationality seems to be the heart of the matter, and sovereignty. More importantly, by your logic, forcible removal of the remnants of any foreign occupation force would count as ethnic cleansing, as would the mass expulsion of illegal aliens. It is also worth noting that Israel itself was built by ethnic cleansing, under the imperative that it should be a Jewish State; not all Jewish immigrants came willingly, and a fairly good chunk the Arabs living there had to be persuaded to displace themselves for the sake of that imperative.

On the subject of the Christians, there has been a growing movement in Israel to define Arab Christians as a separate minority from Arab Muslims. Naturally members of all 3 religions are divided on the issue. Legally it hasn't happened yet and would be very slow if it were, but on a lower level, like some NG Os or smaller offices, it seems to be gaining a little traction.

@the handle. The removal of all Jews from a territory, hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom were born there and have been there for several generations, is ethnic cleansing. The term for that is Judenrein, and it is disgusting to say that a country should not have any Jews. There isn't a purer form of ethnic cleansing than ensuring that not a single person the undesirable population is left. That way it would be pure Arab/Palestinian. It fits that wikipedia entry perfectly. Even the post-WW 2 ethnic cleaning of Germans from parts of eastern Europe wasn't that complete.

With regards to the founding of the state, it is a lot more complicated that 'Israel was conceived in ethnic cleansing.' There was ethnic cleansing on both sides, with the cleansing of Jews being much more complete and intended than the cleansing of Arabs. Neither cleansing would have occurred if the Arabs had accepted the 47 partition plan, and in those days it was impossible to fight a war without ethnic cleansing. What we're talking about now is deliberately making a land Judenrien when there is not even a war going on. That's the sort of thing that happened in Spain in 1492.

edited 2nd Mar '14 1:41:28 PM by uncannybeetle

<theological remark>

Marq, I believe it is not God who designated these places as sacred but men, in a perverse idolization of locales that where merely the setting of sacred events, but hold no power on their own. How could they, when all such power is God's and God's alone? Even the Kaaba is designated as the House of God because God wanted to humor the faithful, who had taken the initiative of building a shrine in his honor, if memory serves.

This said, I believe the most productive approach is to consensually redesign and organize cults in such a way that they can share the same space without mutual interference. In the Cordoba mosque, which is now a cathedral, Muslims are allowed to pray. When it coincides with Mass, it can be quite the experience, both congregations working in parallel to each other.

</theological remark>

Forgive the misplaced humor, but "Judenrien", when read in French, sounds like "Je donne rien", "I surrender nothing/I will not give in", with a humorous Arabic accent.

Back on topic, Spain seemed worried that the local Muslims' sympathies would be with prospective invaders from the South. Contrast with, say, the Muslims of Poland, who were not cozy with their foreign counterparts, and were welcome to remain in peace. There's no war on, but relations with the neighbors are hardly relaxed.

edited 2nd Mar '14 1:56:54 PM by TheHandle

That does seem like the best solution, and Judaism and Islam have a concept of prayer and God that is close enough that it should be even easier than in the Cathedral. Unfortunately both sides have to be open-minded about it. If even one side is against it it falls apart.

More like one faction of one side.

There's a difference between trying to kick all the Jews out of a region and trying to kick all the Israeli citizens out of a region. Not all Israelis are Jewish, and not all Jews are Israelis, and the Jews that are Israelis could presumably renounce their Israeli citizenship and become citizens of Palestine.

@ uncannybeetle: I don't think Jordan wants the West Bank back anyway, not after Black September.

Oh no. Jordan is terrified of the Palestinians seizing political control from their monarchy. I was just illustrating that even many Israeli right-wingers have decided its better not to hold onto 100% of the land.

As for getting rid of all Israelis, supposedly Arabs who are Israeli citizens are also considered Palestinians. That would certainly be an interesting thing for Palestine to bar Palestinians from living there-though at the moment that seems to be the official policy of the PA with regards to the descendants of the refugees in Syria and Lebanon-they won't be allowed into the West Bank because that is not the precise location of their houses 70 years ago.

But who knows what Abbas is really thinking, since his views change depending on the audience. Maybe he'll let anyone, refugee, Jew, or Israeli Arab come and live in his country as long as they aren't citizens anywhere else.

Have the more moderate Palestinians said anything on the possibility of taking whichever 19XX borders are considered most legitimate and gaining a couple of hundred thousand Jewish taxpayers as a minority? No huge population displacement, just give 200 000 citizenships?

Arafat had no problem with Jews living on land where Arabs never lived. So to him many of the settlements were more tolerable than Jews living in many cities and towns inside the pre-67 borders. The more extreme organizations like Hamas have similar views and would probably let a Jewish minority remain as long as it conformed to Dhimmi status. From their point of view the settlers are also more tolerable in some ways than the Jews inside the pre-67 borders. It is the moderates who at least grudgingly accept that Israel isn't going anywhere soon that have the biggest problems with the settlements and the settlers.

The divide between the extremists and the moderates is similarly blurred on the Israeli side. In practically every way the religious zionist community is much more moderate than the hareidi community, but the nature of the extremism among the hareidim is such that they are much more flexible on peace negotiations than the religious zionist community.

Rep. Michele Bachmann: American Jews Have ‘Sold Out Israel’ by Supporting Obama.

edited 4th Mar '14 4:44:01 PM by DeviantBraeburn

I'm trying to think of an emoticon that conveys when you point with your arms one way, the other, and then just give up and sigh loudly.

I'm sure they have such an animated emoticon at the Something Awful Forums.

I wonder how long it'll be until someone says "The Israelis sold out Israel"...

I'm plenty sure that has already been said by Israeli (ultra)nationalists towards those Jewish Israelis who eventually had their fill of their government and effectively defected to the pro-Palestinian side by openly supporting Palestinian refugees and victims of IDF/settler oppression, foreign humanitarian efforts aimed at them, working for Israeli-based human/civil rights organizations that refuse to play a Double Standard on the issue in question, and/or working on creating documentaries or even movies about the Palestinians' plight. (Yes, they exist. And are subject to pretty much the same threats as any Palestinian or pro-Palestine foreigner, if not worse due to being seen as Category Traitors. End of story.)

edited 5th Mar '14 12:29:44 AM by MarqFJA