Complaining: Useful Notes.The Bechdel Test

I was just asking about a example from this I found on a page(if was one or not), and realized from how heated it started to get that this may be a problem trope. I think we need to limit examples from it to it's page and keep them off the pages of the works or something. I listed complaining because I didn't really know where to start due to the nature of the problem.

I could also see maybe just making it a useful notes page.

edited 21st Jul '13 4:58:21 PM by shoboni

I don't think it should have examples, really.

There's also the issue of recap pages. A few series I've seen have this listed on every episode's recap, saying whether or not it passes the test.

That's terrible.

It's was generally agreed that the Bechdel Test would be example-less short of straight-up referencing the trope and if used elsewhere it should be in VERY broad terms, not just pointing out that there is a single conversation that does include men in any way. The reason is that the test itself is more of a thought experiment than a trope.

Someone's been breaking that agreement then, Even a while back prior to the one I brought up I've seen examples for it on pages.

Edit: I got back from checking my Ask The Tropers post on it again, it's not gotten uncivil, but it seems like it's really, really touchy. I don't quite think I've seen people get so heated over a trope in a long time. It seems the people that like the trope are a dedicated bunch.

Edit 2: The more I think about Larks post, the more I see another problem. Since you could post the trope on every sing work page you wanted to do the test on, it's a clutter magent without the "only trope works that mention it directly" rule.

edited 21st Jul '13 7:46:25 PM by shoboni

I could also see maybe just making it a useful notes page.

For the sake of those not following ATT (which you are, shoboni, but not everyone does) where I mentioned it, TBT already is a Useful Notes page. The Main/ is just a redirect to the UN page. The non-UN existence is why it's wicked all over the place, as is the case with a lot of pages that were made before the Useful Notes classification and namespacing efforts.

edited 21st Jul '13 10:52:44 PM by Nohbody

That's what I was thinking. It already is a useful notes page, so what's the problem?

It shows up in a work's Trivia subpage occasionally. I don't think listing that a work fails is in any way noteworthy.

The issue I heard of are complainy entries in wicks.

Personally, I think that a work's Bechdel Test results would be Trivia at best.

My view over the issue, basically repeating my stance from ATT, is this: I think it's fairly interesting thought experiment of evaluating how women are presented in media. Only it bothers me that sometimes saying that a work passed can come off as showing off and thinking your work is better for passing, and saying that it failed is judgemental, as if the work was bad specifically for not passing.

I think we should allow listing in TRIVIA pages. It's an interesting bit of information, and sometimes pointed out by creators. And we have Word of God as trivia.

I don't think it's so popular that it would end up littering all trivia pages.

However, having all recap pages saying if it passes or fails is really ridiculous. Unless somebody set up Trivia-subpage for the recap.

edited 21st Jul '13 11:58:07 PM by XFllo

I would be fine with listing them on Trivia, but then the page should also be Trivia, not really Useful Notes.

In the same way this page limits examples to in-universe references, the same could apply the other way around: Putting the TBT entry only in work pages or tabs that reference it in-universe, not merely to say if it meets the test or not. What do you think?

edited 22nd Jul '13 12:28:44 AM by MyFinalEdits

That works for me, too. Keeps at least some ranting on sexism off.

However, the problem would be that not many instances of Word of God refer to the test specifically. There are probably even less works that would mention it in-verse.

Either way, I don't care that much about this page and how it's cross-wicked. Either resolution will be ok with me, though I'd probably prefer if tropers were allowed to list it on trivia.

Or perhaps it could go to analysis sub-pages of the work in question.

edited 22nd Jul '13 1:09:45 AM by XFllo

The reason the discussion got heated was because you were trying to get the Bechdel Test declared Flame Bait because an MLP comic didn't pass it. It had nothing to do with tropers commonly getting worked up on it, no matter how true or false that is.

Anyway, I think you should be allowed to list it on trivia pages. It's not a trope because it's not a storytelling device, but it's an interesting examination of a work. Since TV Tropes is all about interesting examinations of works, it fits perfectly. Also, since it's essentially one line, I don't see how it would clutter pages (an argument shoboni made in Ask The Tropers, just in case it wasn't made on this thread).

edited 22nd Jul '13 8:16:45 AM by Lightflame

If it's just one line, it's probably a zero context example. I wouldn't support having a bunch of "The Bechdel Test: Passed" on every trivia page of a work that passes it. At least there would be context like who the people are, what the conversation is and such of the first conversation that passes the work.

edited 22nd Jul '13 8:19:54 AM by MikuruFan

analysis might be good, I still prefer keeping in in universe though.

edited 22nd Jul '13 8:29:35 AM by shoboni

The only time I've seen Analysis/ used to house a trope list is Analysis.The Princess And The Frog.

Yeah, that's not proper use of Analysis/.

Princess and the Frog did it for the racial tropes since that was one of the controversial aspects of the movie.

On topic, my issue here is the more I think about, the more this test isn't a meaningful look at the work. It's extremely skewed and really doesn't tell a thing about the work in the end to how narrow it's scope of what's acceptable is.

edited 22nd Jul '13 8:39:31 AM by shoboni

The Bechdel Test is not a grade of quality or judgement. It is a piece of observatory trivia, and it has yet to present any of the issues you claim. That a piece of My Little Pony fails is notable because the franchise is aimed at girls and has a cast predominantly composed of girls. It says absolutely nothing about the quality of the work, or its content.

I'm closing this thread. There is no issue that requires TRS space, nor should anyone fixate on whether their favourite work passes.