DC Extended Universe

It also has probably the best line in Daredevil history. As Kingpin is realizing what he just did (i.e he broke Matt Murdock) we get this line, in the midst of Kingpin's internal monologue of Evil Gloating which is intercut with a Training Montage of Daredevil getting back in his feet and punching a punching bag until it flies off its hinges:

"And then Wilson Fisk realized that a man without hope is a man without fear"

edited 27th Aug '16 7:05:45 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

In TDKR he's basically a good man forced to do things he's uncomfortable with because he knows the alternative is letting the world go further down the drain.

In DKSA he's basically become a dumbass who can't figure how to get out of his situation without Batman telling him what to do, because by then Batman's become a self righteous can't do wrong know it all. When Batman's character arc in TDKR was all about learning to admit and accept his limits.

edited 27th Aug '16 7:07:07 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

He basically is forced to fight Bruce because the government wants Batman shut down. So Superman fights him and even though Bruce uses his Batmech suit and Green Arrow shoots him with a Kryptonite arrow, Superman still has the upper hand...until Bruce has a heart attack and dies. (He fakes his death, hence why later on Superman hears his heartbeat and smiles.)

TDKR is the most important Batman story of the last 30 years. If you can't stomach Miller's art, you should watch the 2 animated movies covering the story.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

Superman is still holding back, Batman has Kryptonite, Green Arrow and a Robin-manned tank, Preptime, and Batman still loses.

Which is why, when people point at TDKR blaming it of the Batman Can Beat Anything craze, they aren't actually remembering the story right.

I'd disagree with that statement. I'd say it might be Batman: Year One or, if we're talking about longer storylines, No Man's Land, which actually built up a huge storyline that involved characters outside of Gotham.

I'd say TDKR is pretty important as far as Batman stories go, though I've always had a preference for Year One myself.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

My favorite stories, though, actually tend to have very little Batman in them. My absolutely favorite Batbook of all time is Gotham Central, where Batman shows up for, like, two pages and that's it.

I can see that. Stories focusing on the background cast can be entertaining.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

Year One is better, but there's no denying TDKR is more influential and thus important. It added all sorts of concepts from Alfred as Bruce's childhood caretaker and father figure (where previously, he'd been someone Bruce hired well past adulthood) to Joker's psychosexual fixation on Batman (where previously, it had been far more of a purely intellectual obsession) to Jason Todd's demise, and codified most of the core Modern Batman tropes after the Bronze Age established them but failed to make them lasting (as, even past the O' Neil and Englehart runs, some elements of the daytime, public figure Batman still refused to fully go away, for better or worse).

edited 27th Aug '16 7:55:06 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Oh Gotham Central is way more than entertaining, it is simply one of the best comics ever. It's about the Gotham Major Case Unit, who work in a city not only filled with crime, but filled with Batman's Rogues Gallery. It's how they deal with Mr. Freeze (badly) and Firebug (actually pretty well) and the times when they don't bring in Batman's help and the times when they are forced to (none of them can actually touch the Batsignal, it needs to be operated by someone not employed by the police) which all of them hate, because it means they are acknowledging that they themselves can't solve the crime.

It's a brilliant book about being a police detective in a world of superheroes. And it is one of the most tragic books is existence, too.

edited 27th Aug '16 7:54:53 PM by alliterator

It's also important not to overlook when TDKR happened. DC was still battling the damage the Adam West tv show did to Batman in the public conscience. TDKR did that and did it in spades.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

On the subject of Batbooks where Batman is at best peripheral to the story— big, big fan of Arkham Asylum Living Hell over here.

stories with a peripheral batman being great isn't surprising because Bruce by himself is sadly not a super interesting or dynamic character a lot of the time. His mythos, supporting cast, aesthetic, villains, etc are the big reason why he's popular.

TDKR is generally listed as among the top 5 comic book stories of all time, so you could definitely say it's a heavily influential Batman story.

Batman and Bruce Wayne himself can be an extremely interesting person, the problem is that the Batman mythos really are just that fantastic so that Batman himself becomes pared down to the simplest qualities: fighter, detective, schemer, scientist. The Arkham Games especially were guilty of that, so many colorful enemies to fight that any attempts at character depth were perfunctory at most.

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns is an important graphic novel, period, and an important Batman story. I was immensely impressed with it when I first read it, when it came out (and I, it should be mentioned, was 11). However, I've liked it less and less with each subsequent re-reading. Nowadays, it feels really, really dated, which is always a problem when a work banks too much on it's novelty (nothing is new and different forever). I have to say in retrospect I much prefer the Denny O'Neill/ Steve Englehart Batman.

Interestingly, Miller has said he doesn't (or didn't, anyhow) agree with everything Batman does or says in TDKR, only that the book is from Batman's point of view and all opinion expressed in it should be taken with that in mind. He once expressed an interest in doing that story from Superman's point of view, but I doubt, considering the stuff he did in The Dark Knight Strikes Back and All-Star Batman and Robin that he still feels that way. He still claims that he loves Superman as a character, but that's hard to see given how much he uses him as Batman's stooge.

Now, Batman: Year One on the other hand is great. Hard to believe it was written by the same guy as TDKR or any of it's subsequent sequels. No-Man's Land though...that one just felt like a bloated train wreck to me. For my money, the best portrayal of Batman in the last 30 years or so was probably on Batman: The Animated Series.

edited 28th Aug '16 12:12:38 PM by Robbery

I actually didn't find Year One that compelling. TDKR was my jam though. Death of the Family is up there as one of my favorite Batman stories.

I'll also agree that Batman: TAS was extremely crucial to the Batman mythos. More so than any movie, in fact, but I'd say the most important contemporary piece of Batman media is the Arkham trilogy (or tetralogy if you don't want to ignore Origins).

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

Year One was tighter and better built, but Dark Knight Returns was more 'fun', perhaps because it gets to play with all the major toys in the canon box at the time.

I like it because it shows a down and out Batman. Shows how he can never lead a normal life.

I wish he did die from a silly heart attack in the end though.

I really like what Batman Beyond showed Bruce's life amounting to. 50 years in Gotham and nothing's changed.

edited 28th Aug '16 2:43:29 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

Well, the whole city is still standing up and Ra's al Ghul hasn't annihilated humanity, so it's not like Bruce never achieved anything.

Also I kinda felt the implication was that Batman retiring was what made things worse again.

I mean, he almost had a heart attack and killed a man with a gun. He had to give up.

My various fanfics.

The thing is, Batman left Gotham in a worse place. He escalated things as Batman, and then quit so the good guys had nothing to fight the escalation. Whether it be Jokerz or Mutantz, Batman retiring leaves Gotham in a worse place than when he started.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

That's when he should have gotten Clark to be Batman part time. Or make up with Dick, and he can be Batman.

That would let him retire happily, which should not be the case for Batman. He can't get a happy ending.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."