Filum Romanum - A Thread for the Catholic Church

@Handle: That sounds like what I'm talkin' about. The same thing happened in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants (for obvious reasons).

So yeah, there's a degree of Catholic identity as tribal identity that goes beyond religious belief or even education.

"Ethnic" probably isn't the right word there; "Tribal" is somewhat better. But there is something about being raised Catholic that makes it very difficult to just walk away completely; and that seems to be different than most of the Protestant denominations. I've been lapsed for over half my life, and I still self-identify as a Catholic.

It's kind of weird.

Catholic always held a strong appeal for most folks, even non-Catholic ones. To the point of being iconic in some media.

As a Brazilian (a Catholic myself from one of the most Catholic countries in the world), I feel it's at least in part due the massive weight Catholicism has in our culture.

For a quick example, if we're talking schools in Brazil (at least in the Brazilian Northeast), they're either public (which are for the most rather deficient to put it mildly) or private Catholic ones. The private school (but not university) market is basically monopolized by Catholic schools, so most people grow under the shadow of Catholic culture in education. This goes for other concepts as well, as one of the best private universities (though in Brazil public universities are generally considered superior to private ones) is known as the Catholic University, several important cultural/historical figures were Catholic (often Priests) and general Catholic presence in the public life.

The concept of the Saints also tends to leave some sort of mark, because every community (no matter how small) tends to have a specific saint or martyr connected to that community's culture, which interconnects the whole Catholicism culture closer to that people's specific culture. P Lus the fact everything has a patron saint means basically everything has a link to Catholicism somehow (E.g: Wanna buy fish? The fish market'll probably have St. Andrew somewhere, as he's the patron saint of fishermen for whom they pray for protection)

The general aesthetic of Catholicism tends to impact society I'd say, the huge cathedrals, the ominous latin chanting, the curious clothing of the Priests, the staggering amount of Holidays and celebrations for several Patron Saints, the Creepy Cool Crosses, the celibate Preachers, e.t.c

edited 24th Apr '15 7:59:21 PM by Gaon

Something similar to pillarisation happened in Switzerland as well. And like elsewhere, the Catholic identity was stronger than the protestant one. The catholic political party was outright religious in their views while protestants voted for the liberals or a bit latter the socialists but not for a religious party.

In our case it was probably because the catholic population was synonymous with the rural population and thus less educated and more religious and conservative. Conservatism and Catholicism were largely intertwined.

It's interesting you should mention political parties because at the current moment (and as far as I'm aware, for all of Brazil's Republican history), Catholicism never really had a "political party" to represent its interests. Quite probably because it doesn't need one due the sheer strength of its faith with the populace, and in the current day, only the evangelics have an actual political party that represenst their interests (it is actually quite terrifying in its beliefs but that's another subject).

Which also leads to another subject that Catholicism in Brazil, from my experience, tends to lean more to the left than usual. At the time of the dictatorship several Priests were tortured or executed for expressing distaste at the dictatorship's dealings and I've met several Priests with more progressive beliefs (like agrary reform, educational reform and interest in scientific discoveries).

From my experience, Brazilian Catholics tend to be a lot less conservative than the Neo-Charismatic Evangelics (the strongest Protestant faction), though admittedly that isnt a hard feat at all.

I think you guys may need to check your assumptions. The Catholics got nothing on the Jews in terms of being central to one's social identity. Even among Christians, I dont think Baptists identify any less with their faith, and not just in the South.

That is a good point. I suppose I'm not saying Catholics have associate their faith with their culture than other religions, I'm just trying to reason why they seem to do it so much.

Erm, you're getting it backwards, I think. We're not necessarily saying that Catholic religion is "more central" to a person's identity than any other religion is. We're saying that Catholic identity includes a tribal identity, over and above religious affiliation, that doesn't seem to be there in Protestantism. I don't think there's a "lapsed Baptist" identity to the same degree (where a Baptist rejects the Baptist religion but still identifies themselves tribally as a Baptist).

We're not saying that Jews don't also operate that way (or even more so).

edited 25th Apr '15 4:24:47 AM by Ramidel

In Italy, there's a strange phenomenon of very diffused Catholicism. The church is so embedded that national identity and culture are inseparable from its traditions and aesthetics, and the state is not fully secular. Yet at the same time hardly anyone does as the church teaches. The most obvious example is the very strong tradition of single child families (at least in the north). It's not that they object to these teachings, they just don't follow them. The church is at once omnipresent and too powerful, and very weak right where it wants to have the most influence.

Reading up on Salvatore Cordileone, he's definitely strongly conservative and has made himself known by opposing same sex marriage. Appointing him to San Francisco suggests a very, very wrong way of thinking in the hierarchy.

Ah, I see. Carry on.

Diffused Catholicism looks pretty commonplace to me. Am not complaining. I honestly rather have easy-going Catholics who are OK with Homosexuality (and Science!) and open to the idea of female priests, than the alternative. Plus, I remember reading that abortion has been legal in Italy for decades.

Abortion still causes my brain to go BSOD at times but I have come to accept that women shouldn't have to bear children that they do not wish to bear.

A very good look at the "diffuse Catholicism" of Italy post-WWII is in the "Don Camillo" stories by Giovannino Guareschi.

It probably has something to do with the differing things that Catholics & Protestants view as essential and defining. If I'm not mistaken, Catholics consider being baptized as paramount, and the thing that above all else makes you a Catholic. For Protestants, the defining element is conscious acceptance of central Christian teaching (roughly summed up by the Nicene/Apostle's Creed, whether or not the Protestant church in question realizes it).

Looking at the two, you can see that the former standard is the sort of thing a person can virtually be born into, and doesn't necessarily choose for himself. The latter, however, requires an act of individual volition, and can't ultimately be "passed down" from family, community, or anywhere else.

This explains why to Catholics, a baptized person who disbelieves the Incarnation, the sacrifice of Christ, the Virgin Birth, etc., wouldn't be a particularly good Christian, but would still count as a Christian by virtue of his baptism. With most Protestants, it's exactly the opposite: an unbaptized person who believed in and accepted Christ might be somewhat derelict in his responsibilities, but would still be a Christian.

Again: under the first interpretation, a kind of "cultural" Christianity by osmosis is possible (though not ideal); under the second, it's impossible. Thus, a lapsed Catholic is a lapsed Catholic; a lapsed Protestant is an apostate, agnostic, or atheist.

edited 26th Apr '15 11:43:13 AM by Jhimmibhob

What about anabaptists?

They'd be in the same boat as most Protestants on that end. The mentality is much more similar to them.

Just like you can be a Jew but not Jewish? I don't Catholic is a race though. Yet.

edited 26th Apr '15 4:24:57 PM by CassidyTheDevil

Not really. They are different things and have very different socio-historical contexts.

What does? Jewish ethnicity and the Jewish religion? Or do you mean the comparison in particular?

The comparison in particular. It does not hold water.

Ah. Well I wasn't trying to say they were the same thing, I was musing about where the point where the strength of a cultural identity makes it a race.

Honestly I'd say it's pretty close. Race is mostly a social construct, so really if people agree it's race, then people will treat it like one.

I'd say Catholicism as it tends to work is more similar to a sort of ethereal nationality than a ethnicity. Complete with people being "exiled" (excommunication) or continuing to identify as members of that nation even though they're currently not there or haven't been there for a while (basically a lapsed Catholic).

On the whole ethnicity thing: I know in the US, Catholicism is more common among people of Hispanic, Italian, Irish, etc., descent and tends to be more concentrated in places where those populations are higher. So it wouldn't surprise me if at least a few people viewed it as part of their heritage.

As a convert (or actually someone in the process of converting; not a catechumen, as I've already been baptized but not quite in full communion with the Church yet either and I'm not sure if there's a word for that), I don't think I can comment much on what it's like to be Raised Catholic. But as someone who grew up in the Bible Belt, I do know what it's like to be "raised Protestant." And I can maybe see a bit of a difference.

I think part of the reason Catholics seem to identify more with their denomination is the way it claims to have the fullness of the faith. Granted, many protestant denominations would make a similar claim (who would want to join a religion that purports itself to "may or may not be correct?") but in practice, not many people seem to act as if that is the case. Yeah, there's the occasional fundamentalist who thinks everyone not in their denomination is going to hell - or at the very least that Catholics are going to hell because they're following the Pope, who is the Antichrist (ironic how they back these claims by quoting Revelation, which is Catholic scripture), but from what I've seen, just about everyone around here thinks as long as you worship Jesus, it doesn't matter whether you're Pentecostal, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, or whatever. And how could they? Most of them belong to a church that's less than 500 years old, so they can't make the claim to have been there from the beginning.

Perhaps that's another thing that might make people identify more with Catholicism than other denominations: the history. Aside from the Orthodox churches, Catholics are the only people who can honestly trace their history back to Jesus and the disciples (side note: if there is rock music in heaven, I hope Jesus fronts a band called Jesus and the Disciples). Yeah, you may have a random protestant denomination saying "We were back then too, but we were silenced until the 16th century or later," but they have no historical proof of this.

Not to mention, Catholic theology like the real presence. Protestants might not think where you take communion matters that much, but I'm sure Catholics would beg to differ.

edited 26th Apr '15 7:04:52 PM by FingerPuppet

@ vandro

In my opinion, I'd like to think that it's because they kept civilization standing after Rome was sacked, and that Protestantism is a revolt against the system the Vatican established, even if some of what they oppose is legit (see Martin Luther and his opposition of selling of indulgences).

edited 27th Apr '15 12:22:15 AM by HallowHawk

It's a combination of the details of Catholic teachings on the sacraments, and the fact that we just happen to have a very clearly delineated, structured, and (relatively) homogeneous culture. Most brands of Protestants are so all over the place, even within denominations, that it would be difficult to lock down what kind of culture or general outlook on life would even be retained after leaving.

edited 27th Apr '15 1:03:00 AM by Pykrete