This. You could theoretically cut everything down like that but it doesn't mean it's good for the story. Ren and Nora backstory isn't something most people would be satisfied with just having a ten second conversation. Yang already being back to normal with the occasional flashback also probably isn't something most people would be okay with. And skipping over everything with Oscar to the point where he's just accepted everything would just be terrible.
Debating pacing is one thing, but there's not much debate going on when "make everything shorter" is the only point. Yeah, you get to the "plot" faster, but you also cut out a lot of what makes that meaningful.
edited 23rd Jan '17 7:41:48 AM by LSBK
Since my issue is the handling of the timeskip, I suggest removing that element from Season 4 entirely. No plot advancement is necessary, just follow off exactly where we left RWBY at season 3. Season 5 would be the timeskip, and we'd have a whole season of dealing with Beacon's fallout and the Schnee family.
Jupiterian Local
The problem with the Renora flashback wasn't the flashback itself, it's where they decided to insert it.
Ultimately, the problem with season four is that season three ratcheted up the scale and scope of the story. Season one was about Team RWBY and Team JNPR and that's about it. Season two added a criminal conspiracy that threatened Vale. Season three expanded the conspiracy to include not just all four kingdoms, but also fundamental aspects of Remnant itself, like the Maidens, and ended by introducing the series' overall Big Bad for the first time.
Season four should have picked up and had everyone dealing with big world-shattering stuff. The Maidens, the Relics, the relationship between Ozpin and Salem, etc etc. It even started on that scale, what with Salem addressing her inner circle and dispatching her minions to further her aims.
Aaaaand then we ditch all that and start dealing with useless crap instead. Weiss arguing with her dad. Blake being gunshy and still having to deal with the White Fang. Yang being sad. Ruby wandering around. None of that is the world-level stuff that we were led to believe was coming, so it all feels like a waste of time. They could frame it in such a way to make all of these feel relevant — say, Ruby is Putting the Band Back Together in order to fight Salem, and they need to deal with each character's subplot before they can leave home and rejoin the team. But they don't do that, and it leaves one wondering why the story is focusing on this stuff instead of the big world-changing stuff going on.
Nora and Ren's flashback is that but moreso. It's something worth seeing, and finding out that Nora was a street urchin before she met Ren is interesting. But why now? It wasn't immediately relevant to the plot, except in that some of the characters happened to be passing through the ruins of their hometown. It wasn't even that Nora and Ren were there to explain their own backstory, so Ruby and Jaune know about it now. They still don't. Only the audience knows. Which makes it seem like it was included mainly to introduce the boss grimm — but why do we care about the boss grimm? It's been running around for ten years or more. It's just a grimm. It has nothing to do with Salem et al. So why are we dealing with it right now?
You can't just introduce major plot events like Salem & co and then spend an entire season ignoring them. But that's exactly what RWBY is doing. If they had wanted to tell the "Team RWBY is scattered and bogged down by their own personal issues" story, then they shouldn't have led with "Salem dispatching her minions to further her schemes" plot thread.
The problem is that by starting the season out by showing us Salem & co, they set the tone for the season as involving Salem & co. And then they gave us a season where Salem & co's involvement is minimal. They set expectations and then failed to live up to them, which is what makes it frustrating.
edited 23rd Jan '17 7:48:34 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
On the other hand, after Volume 3 Completely Torched the original Extranormal Institute premise of the show and broke up the main team, volume 4 may be intended as more of a breather season than anything else, plus setup for the next major arc of the story, and in that regards it seems serviceable. Yes they've Shoo'd Out The Clowns and traumatized the deuteragonist and to a lesser extent the protagonist, but the show is not going full Madoka, which is probably for the best given they spent around 3 years in real time building up to the Cerberus Syndrome snap to blackness that was Volume 3.
As far as how it compares to previous volumes, I'd say 3 is still far and away the best, but 4 beats out 2 by virtue of the plot actually going somewhere and 1 by virtue of not being incredibly awkward in both animation and writing.
edited 23rd Jan '17 8:03:38 AM by CaptainCapsase
If the theme is something to go, is clear this volume is about healing and moving on which is fitting after the cra p they endure, which I will go....
You are also forgotten past volume(which have worst pacing in my opinion) also deal several blows to the protagonist: Weiss is taken back by her dad, Adam apear and show that yes, YOU SHOULD BE afraid of him kicking Blake right back on square one and make is on "How force awaken should ended" in yang, if you DONT follow that them you are wasting chararterization in favor of a far plot we dont know is going to get resolve.
Look, im not saying they coudnt do better since Weiss,Yang plot have been....regular at best, Blake is good but it suffer from Sun being the butt monkeu(haha) to compensate Jaune being mature but to drop that in favor of going right into the goal would be terrible.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Like I said before.Ruby putting the team back together doesn't really work when she has no idea what she's fighting. The whole point of going to Mistral is so she can find out.
it also waste the idea of her being on her on with another team as it will treak this a setback when it should be something bigger.
Why would that be terrible? He's not a member of the main cast. He's not somebody we cared about before Oz jacked him. He's a vessel for the mentor character to return to the plotline through. That's it.
Shocking Gun!
So Ozpin should just suddenly return in a host of some random kid with no explanation how everything happened, or how they got there in the first place? That's what you want? For a dead character to just suddenly return in a really weird way?
Lizard Metabolism
By being a vessel for the mentor character - who has a lot of questions to answer - he's already interesting in the sense that already his subconscious clashes with Ozpin's.
I'd rather have an explanation why exactly Ozpin chose some random-ass schmuck though.
As for Vol. 4, it arguably introduces us to the world on a greater scale. Previous volumes were self-contained within Vale and Beacon.
With those behind us, we get to see a whole new bit of the world that is Mistral, more specifically, its wilderness. (on top of bits from Atlas and Menagerie). Salem's being shown, I think, mostly to show that she's not just twiddling her thumbs and practicing evil laughs in her Spooky Cathedral, but that The Evil(?) Plot is not going to wait for the heroes.
Now everybody gets to sort out their stuff before the plot can kick us in the face like second half of Vol. 3 did.
edited 23rd Jan '17 9:28:40 AM by FergardStratoavis
How do lizards fly?
If your not going to make Oscar a character in his own right then there isn't even a point in doing this. It's the lazy approach.
And that means actually showing him getting used to things.
And I don't get assuming Ozpin choice to be in him.
edited 23rd Jan '17 9:33:14 AM by LSBK
Where force fails, cunning prevails
Oscar isn't someone you can just remove. The problem is still a matter of pacing, however. I sadly can't say what the true focus is given that, logically speaking, it should be Ruby. She's the alpha protagonist based on the title and what's going on, but the issue is there is so much going on that I can't tell where the core focus is.
This is a pro and con for fantasy plots and what they tend to play to.
edited 23rd Jan '17 9:41:24 AM by Prime_of_Perfection
Improving as an author, one video at a time.
Shocking Gun!
You know, this reminds me of one conversation we had in this thread where the question was why is Ruby the protagonist/POV character when she has no true weight in the plot. And now the complain is that she has no focus.
Personally, I tend to be interested on the characters more than the overall plot. I enjoy learning new things about characters.
Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!
Jupiterian Local
Speaking of, I actually do think that the Oscar/Ozpin stuff is better shown in-progress than just having Ozcar show up somewhere out of the blue. I don't think the way they've handled it has been particularly good (again, they've wasted a lot of time on the subplot unnecessarily), but I do think we needed to see the process of "Ozpin ends up in Oscar's head, Oscar reluctantly accepts that he's not crazy, Ozcar sets off to save the world or whatever". Just having Ozcar show up wherever RNJR or whoever else is doing stuff out of the blue would be weird and unsatisfying.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Where force fails, cunning prevails
"Focus" as in what's the protagonist's issue, the core theme, and the plot. Those three things make up focus and when it comes to the plot and the protagonist's issue, that's where I'm a bit uncertain as of yet what RWBY fully plans to do. For such things, I look to the true protagonist since while we can have ensembles and all that, one protagonist is still the true protagonist.
Ruby is still a weak protagonist, though, given that she's passive and her ideals haven't been tested to the extent as the others. But that's a whole other matter entirely.
Anyway, I can't judge every plot element yet, such as Oscar's importance, because I don't have enough of the picture. I do feel there is too much going on and we do suffer from Four Lines, All Waiting.
As an aside, I actually liked the episode, even if I do agree with the complaints. Ren's shift in personality felt so forced too, but in spite of all that, I just liked the backstory.
Improving as an author, one video at a time.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but this is hardly a new problem
They did it with RVB too, but, that's neither here nor there.
It's been 12 since the episodes have been getting longer. Now that they're with Screwattack/Fullscreen and the plot's moving at a slower pace it could be longer.
Watching the new episode and I already like Earth guy. Don't have a silly nickname for him. He's interesting.
And I'm pretty sure I just saw a loaf of bread with Kyubey's face on it in that window.
edited 23rd Jan '17 10:54:55 AM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Jupiterian Local
I'd agree that season 3 didn't have this issue, but season 2 went in a complete circle, and remains in my opinion the weakest of the seasons. Season 4 at least appears to be building towards a conclusion which will actually move the plot forwards, even if it's only marginally so.
edited 23rd Jan '17 10:58:56 AM by CaptainCapsase
drunk bunny
I personally don't think it's bad myself. I like the gradual build up for everyone's problems.
I also think that this season would probably be better once it is all out; i'm sure the weekly episode releases are contributing to its slowness.
"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
So in other news Volume 5 has been announced to start in the fall and season 2 of Chibi starts in May.
Hasn't every volume started in the fall?
"Why would that be terrible? He's not a member of the main cast. He's not somebody we cared about before Oz jacked him. He's a vessel for the mentor character to return to the plotline through. That's it. "
sure in writing term, but its also a chararter meaning you cant just shove into the main plot just like that, it would come as jarring and out of place.
When it come to pacing, yeah volume 4 is weird but better than volume 3 were it was just "there is the tournament, not it isnt" and aside for the maiden stuff ther rest is pretty damn filler, so far this volume is about healing and it show it.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Pops in * Hello thread!
Yeah RWBY's always had a bit of a pacing problem IMO. While I really like the characters and some of the lore the pacing is the really the only big problem I have that keeps the show from being really great to me. And I think it comes a lot from Monty taking inspiration from anime that have these same pacing problems.
Just an example of how the pacing could have been better. The scene with Salem at the beginning of the season could have been shown later just before Tyrian attacks Ruby. Having it at the beginning only just eats up time in the episode that they could have used for other scenes with the main characters that they pushed later. And the fight with Tyrian could have really happened a lot sooner, instead of having team RNJR wandering through abandoned towns without much of anything happening. There was so much time between that scene and him finding Ruby, that I almost forgot that he was supposed to be a threat they were going to face.
And this isn't an isolated thing. Previous seasons also spent way too much time setting things up, instead of moving the plot. The little nuggets of info they give you about the characters and the world are so small, that the show is much more enjoyable if you binge an entire season, than if you watch each episode piecemeal.
Basically this show could benefit a lot from using In Medias Res
edited 23rd Jan '17 3:18:14 PM by xanderiskander
you can’t make a show nothing but plot beats, excitement, and important one liners otherwise you fatigue the audience and they pick up none of the important bits. whitespace is important, yo.
I’m not calling CRWBY Hitchcock, but there’s an important element to all of his films: there’s a lot of waiting and deadspace that ratchets up tension like crazy.
For the excessive use of plot advancement and one liners and no downtime, look no farther back in time than Rogue One and how it was damn hard to care about any of the characters. The film was outstanding from a technica point of view on s scene by scene basis, but was akin to a 9 year old telling a story in one breath.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter