Needs Help (Titles Crowner 7/6): Shonen Upgrade

I'm not sure that we necessarily have to merge anything.

I'm just hoping to see us come up with a more clearly defined description/definition, and decide whether or not there is any particular reason this has to have a definition and name linked soley to Shounen anime and manga.

I'm not sure either. I see a distinction, but I'm not sure it's significant enough. I don't think it's necessarily a Japanese trope, though, even if it's the most popular there.

Time to Unlock More True Potential would lead to a Shonen Upgrade of some sort. That's basically the most important distinction I can see: TTUMTP is a plot, while SU is the specific upgrade. Both are about an advance in Sorting Algorithm of Evil. TTUMTP is explicitly about an external source, while SU says it's usually an external source. TTUMTP is about training (lead by a mentor), while SU emphasises a (meta)physical power source. As such, TTUMTP is about a learned technique, while SU can be any sort of techique, power, ability, or transformation. Going with #24, both also have personal growth as an important aspect, though I see that more a part of the overall plotline than specifically tied to these.

That sound about right?

I'm beginning to think we should have some sort of tropes-about-getting-stronger supertrope.

Can we name it I'm Stronger Than Yesterday?

Nope. Sounds like dialog.

How about an index/super trope named Perseverance Tropes? Tropes about overcoming limits/challenges/rivals? That's the entire point to character growth.

edited 25th Mar '13 5:54:52 AM by KingZeal

Why not just Growth Tropes, then? Or Character Growth Tropes, if you want to be more specific.

"Character growth" can mean any change over time, and is often used for them maturing, growing up naturally, becoming better adjusted, or indeed slipping into insanity. This is specifically about fighting power (or abilities relating to any sort of direct confrontation).

Maybe "Growing To Meet The Challenge".

Power Increase Tropes? Perseverance Tropes would also include Determinator and such, which isn't about any kind of growth.

edited 25th Mar '13 11:00:51 AM by AnotherDuck

Determinator doesn't require that one succeed or survive, which is the definition of perseverance. The trope is specifically about a level of growth that overcomes a previous limitation or trial. Even if the person eventually loses (such as Goku losing to Vegeta despite learning Kaioken), the point is that they've overcome a previous limit.

Point is, just succeeding or surviving isn't necessarily growing.

Not interested in semantics, thanks.

The point of the trope is that adversity which was insurmountable or fatal has been defeated or withstood by a character who was not previously able to do so. It's not just growth for growth's sake, either. It is specifically growth that overcomes a previous problem.

"Perseverance" is closer to the nature of the trope than "growth" is.

edited 25th Mar '13 2:13:34 PM by KingZeal

I disagree, and I think your comment about semantics is stupid, considering picking a name without considering its meaning is braindead.

But we should probably agree on what such a supertrope/index should cover, and if this is the place to discuss it first.

edited 25th Mar '13 2:36:55 PM by AnotherDuck

Weren't you the guy who said not to attack people just lasts page?

I really don't care for a semantics battle when we start splitting too many hairs. My point was that all, or at least most, of the tropes have overcoming a challenge as a prerequisite. You can hash out what constitutes overcoming and surviving if you want.

Why not just Getting Stronger Tropes?

edited 25th Mar '13 8:48:54 PM by RavenWilder

I like that as well, though as I said, we should have a clear scope for it first.

Should it include tropes like Power-Up, which is just a game-mechanic trope? Which means, any kind of trope where the character gets stronger, or get stronger equipment. In that case it doesn't necessarily refer to any personality changes, or any strict need for them to overcome the obstacles, or even succeeding at all. Just any kind of power increase.

That's kind of the cleanest and most understandable definition I can think of.

The current related indexes are Magic and Powers (subsection "Ways of establishing and showing powers"), and Power.

Directed at the comment, not you. What you said before was something you have claimed to be an attack on people yourself. And "'Perseverance' is closer to the nature of the trope than 'growth' is," is one of several semantic arguments you've made anyway.

edited 25th Mar '13 11:56:39 PM by AnotherDuck

Like I said, what I'm not interested in is splitting hairs. What I'm also not interested in is going back and forth about it.

If it's that much of a problem, we can have Growth Tropes, Perseverance Tropes, and Power Up Tropes as their own separate indices. They are not the same thing, but there is a ton of overlap.

edited 26th Mar '13 4:27:30 AM by KingZeal

OK, so I get from this that a) the trope distinctions are clear enough, b) Shounen Upgrade needs a rename and c) we need a supertrope/index. The last would be YKTTW job; can we discuss renaming this trope?

We can get crowners for the first two started, but I question a rename.

I know there's this stigma against Japanese-exclusive tropes now, but Shounen Upgrade is definitely one that was perfected, if not created, in Japan. The way it's used in anime and manga and some games is vastly different from power-ups used in most other stories. For example, Harry Potter, Kratos and Luke Skywalker grow more powerful and gain new abilities, but none of them undergo a Shounen Upgrade.

edited 26th Mar '13 4:33:02 AM by KingZeal

That info will have to be in the description, then. There is nothing Japan-specific there now.

That was one of the reasons I created Japanese Spirit, the Super-Trope that Shounen Upgrade symbolizes.

I think one of the problems is that we have a lot of Japanese-styled tropes on the wiki that no one really took a close look at and tried to establish a pattern for. The issue isn't that certain tropes are exclusive to Japan—it's that Japan symbolizes, codifies, or uses them in patterns distinct from other cultures.

Eventually, we just had a bunch of pages that said "This trope is from Japan!" which caused someone to come by later and question what was so Japanese about it. For example, Death Is Cheap works in a lot of media, but it's a special kind of beast in Comic Books.

edited 26th Mar '13 4:43:52 AM by KingZeal

The trope here will need to have this Japanese Spirit explained. Otherwise, I am not OK with having it under this name (or as a Japanese thing).

Fair enough.

Going back to that supertrope name suggestion further up the page... true, "I'm Stronger Than Yesterday" sounds like a piece of dialogue. But what about just "Stronger Than Yesterday"?

The best name I can think of for Shonen Upgrade itself is Climbing The Power Ladder or some variation. Super Weighttraining?

edited 27th Mar '13 12:05:05 PM by Prime32

Climbing The Power Ladder works, I think. Next Tier Power-Up, maybe?

I definitely oppose the supertrope being called either Growth Tropes or Perseverance Tropes. Both of those are about character traits, and everything on Duck's list is about character skills.