Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Manga/Claymore cracks me up because of that, because not only are the competente females basically The entirety of both The main and antagonistic casts, The "worthless female side character who tries but never accomplishes anything and turns into The hero's lover" archetype is actually occupied by a guy, and he is just as hated as that archetype tends to be.

Speaking of Tom Cruise, Edge of Tomorrow: Kill. Die. Repeat was one hell on an underrated movie and could be alternatively called Save Scumming: the movie.

It has both strong male and female characters and Emily Blunt's character was badass without appealing to sexy but instead her prowess.

I found the reason why Rose acquired the Full Metal Bitch nickname because of how she decided to cope with having to see the people she cared about die over and over again very interesting, specially when it is a very know way to cope with loss or possibility of loss is to distance yourself from everyone by becoming cold and impersonal.

Claymore is also interesting because the other male/female romance scenes are with antagonists male and female awakened claymores instead of just the "good guys".

edited 14th Apr '15 4:39:01 PM by AngelusNox

>...and she made an interesting point that gets overlooked when making strong female characters.

I like how it was phrased in Why Strong Female Characters Are Bad for Women, "They thought the feminists meant [Strong Female] Characters. The feminists meant [Strong Characters], Female."

I call that the Power Girl Syndrome, but does it have an official name?

In a way I think this begs to ask the question if there are "types" of violence as in "can there be violence that is gender specific".

That is phrased incredibly weird but that is mostly because of a language thing. Allow me to desperately try to explain and bear in mind this is the equivalent of trying to talk to an angry drug addict who is furiously branding a loaded Smith & Wesson, reeks of cheap beer, and all you have to deal with is an incomplete set of "Scrabble" tokens and a Chutes and Ladders tabletop.

Is grabbing a machine gun and filling the face of Hitler with bullets, a la Inglorious Basterds something that is consiered "Male" violence? As opposed to, say, chasing the drunkard out with a frying pan? For example. If we make Alice, a demure, dainty lady wearing a frilly dress shoot Hitler in the face, are we "butching" her up? That is "male-ifying" her? or is it still just violence?

If we grab Bob, a macho man with a veritable forest in his manly chest and a moustache that can comically adopt an irish boxing stance when the need arises and have him chance around a robber with a rolling pin, are we feminizing him because his method of violence?

Are guns inherently masculine and have we provided a certain kind of violence a gender, despite the constrictions of the language? Is making a violent female character inherently "butching" her up, that is, making her more "male" and hence depriving her of a much needed femininity as a society?

Interesting question, there....

I'd say that yes, some methods of violence are seen (at least in the West) as predominantly female — open-hand slapping, and hair-pulling, for two. Scratching/clawing probably, as well, at least as opposed to gouging. You aren't likely to see male characters use them in western works, unless the male is already being presented as a wimp, ineffectual, or effeminate, or some combination of the three.

Or unless they're using them against a female character; in that case, they're often treated as though they're somehow tempering the level of violence down from what they'd use against a male in the same circumstance — where he would punch a male, he slaps a female.

Scratching is even exempt from that —- it seems to be a uniquely female/feminine tactic.

I think motivation is more important than use of violence. Like you said, men and superheroes will often fight verbally or physically over every little thing. I don't mind a woman who fights, I care why she is fighting.

Halle Berry's Catwoman, Lucy from Lucy, and Jennifer Lopez's character from Enough are all abysmal characters. They may be decent fighters, but they are fighting for absolutely no good reason. They get into fights without regard for if that's even a good option, or solution, they don't even use their violence effectively, and they are just bitches in general with weak motivation so you can't even understand why they are going overboard or what not.

Selene from Underworld is a middle ground character. She has decent motivation and supernatural skills that back up her fighting. I like her. I like that she gets called out for her shit too. Not as clearly as I would like, but it's there. I liked Angelina Jolie's depiction of Lara Croft as someone who would fight when needed, but only as a means to an end, not as a point, which makes sense for what she is. She isn't in it to hurt people, but to get the treasure. It's just another tool in her box.

Better examples of women who use violence would be Sarah Fucking Conner, Vasquez and Ripley from Alien, Isabelle from Predators, and Nadia from Pandorum. They are competent fighters based on their experience, they fight because they have to. They fight effectively and not excessively. Because of their control and competence, they make realistic mistakes but are also well developed characters. Their being female isn't ignored, but it isn't slammed in your face every five seconds. Or if it is brought up, it is in a meaningful way (ex. Sarah Conner as a mother) and not something like, "Oh you know women!"

I'm all for fighting. I don't want women to be discouraged from swapping licks. I want them to be inspired for fighting for something worthwhile.

edited 15th Apr '15 8:39:55 AM by Gabrael

Funny you should mention scratching. I think the perfect example for that is in that one X men Movie where lady Deathstrike appears. She seems to be the antithesis of wolverine...and her adamantium weapons are...her nails.

But the "Good" version of female wolverine, X-32, has her weapons come from between her knuckles, like Wolverine.

"Scratching" peopel are good but they gotta be catlike, or wolfman-like, basically, not even human. it is either bestial or anything.

Huh. How far does this rabbit hole goes?

Can you guys think of examples? I would love to see if women could post their opinions on a good female character who participated in violence in this light ,see what light that sheds

y get ahead of me bear y do dis

edited 15th Apr '15 8:41:50 AM by Aszur

Honestly, because I was a fighter growing up prolly.

I never identified with the Cinderellas and Auroras; I wanted to be Maleficent.

C'mon...she turned into a freaking dragon. A BIG FIREY DRAGON!

Keep your slippers and apples. I'mma go raze some villages.

My parents say I identified more with Scar and Jaffar than the rest and they thought it was weird.

I guess that makes me evil.

Bwahaha.

I never identified with anyone as a kid. I tried to. I picked a favorite, but it was always going through the motions, and sometimes oddly arbitrary.

It wasn't until I became around 12/13 that I started actually forming opinions.

On the bright side it means I basically have no nostalgia at all.

I never liked super powered characters, Batman, Ironman and the Punisher were the ones I could better relate with. All they have is skill, wit and firepower.

I tended to like the Punisher even more because I have an interest towards firearms since for as long as I can remember my existence.

Anyway are there any other female non supers besides Elecktra?

You had very good taste as a child.

When I was a boy I usually identified with the boy characters or child-like ones like the little tea cup in Disney's Beauty and the Beast, Gohan in DBZ and R2-D2. Not quite paragons of manliness. Which is why I liked them and could see myself in them.

Batgirl (various incarnations), Robin, Huntress, Black Canary, Catwoman, Elektra, Oracle, Black Widow, Harley Quinn, Agent 13, Angela, Samus Aran, Black Orchid, Chun Li (sometimes), Gamora, Hit Girl, Cheshire, Jade, The Pink and Yellow Power Rangers, Asuka, Bolty, Jill and Clare from Resident Evil...

Dude...I could go on forever...

And to Tobias, thanks!

I was thinking more about comic books, but yeah I forgot about them.

I guess the last one I read was Pain Killer Jane and it has been years since the last time I got to read one.

Even if we're just using Comics I can go forever still but Wikipedia has it better laid out here:

Superheros and villians without powers

Big ass list of female superheros both with and without powers.

IMO Jubilee counts as having no powers.

I mean. Sparkles? Come on.

I rarely, if ever, related to characters, regardless if they had or lacked powers or any enormously special abilities.

Personally speaking, what I prefer is variety. I like my Cinderelas just as I like my Clares or Makas. In the same way, I like my Rakis and Shinji Ikaris in the same way I like my Gutses.

Although, I do admit I kinda prefer Clark Kent to Frank Castle.

edited 15th Apr '15 9:58:54 AM by SaintDeltora

When I watched most shows I always remembered being annoyed with the girl characters a lot. Especially once I started watching sitcoms and adultish movies. Mostly because it usually had this weird plot device of:

Guy ends up in odd situation due to minor but understandable flaw Guy ends up in worse situation due to no fault of his own Lady finds out Lady completely blames Guy.

Like there was a movie about two cooks or something, and she wanted a promotion, and the guy got it instead, and he turned it down and she got mad at him for going behind her back???

When I was a kid, it annoyed me that sitcoms felt the need to include Girl Power episodes in the formula of

• The boys are doing a thing they enjoy doing.
• Over the course of conversation, the boys offhandedly insult the girls' ability to do boy things.
• The challenge is accepted.
• The girls effortlessly mop the floor with the boys, even if the girls have no experience with the thing the boys challenged them to.
• The boys learned a valuable lesson about not judging someone's skill or ability based on superficial attributes how girls are naturally better than boys at everything, even without having to try.

When I was a kid, it irritated me that so many shows had to dedicate an episode to girls being exceptional rather than just letting boys be good at things that boys do. Looking back as an adult and a feminist, it irritates me that so many shows had to dedicate an episode to girls being exceptional rather than having female characters whose skills and abilities need no such justification.

Like, instead of having one episode where the basketball group gets their ass kicked by some of the girls to show that women can be good at basketball, why not just have some girls in the basketball group?

Yeah there's a difference between "some girls are good at boy things because they work and care about them, because hobbies aren't nearly as gendered as we think they are" and "girls are automatically awesome at everything".

It's a natural reaction though. When you oppress a group for so long, it's easy to instead of pushing for perfect equality, you push for the fact that that group just might indeed be better than you to begin with.

< growls > Black Canary has sonarekinetic powers through her voice and Samus was infused with Chozo DNA to enhance her speed and agility.

Depends on which continuity depends if Black Canary has super powers or not and Samus mainly relies on her suit.

So no, I won't count them as superpowered. They stand on their own well enough.