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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1: Sep 1st 2012 at 6:42:07 AM

We've been having a discussion on Code Geass and it has been dawining on me how extremely unsubtle the series was in portraying the different factions and their moralities. But subtlety isn't a universal pre-requisite for good writing: One Piece is the most unsubtle work ever written (at least from the surface, though this might be deceptive), but it's also extremely enjoyable.

If you follow all the rules you'll only ever release "okay" writing. It's by skillful breaking of the rules that you achieve brilliance.

So, what is subtlety, precisely, and when is it good to use it, and when is it good to forsake it?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
KillerClowns Since: Jan, 2001
#2: Sep 1st 2012 at 6:46:28 AM

While I don't have a grand and all-encompassing answer, I would like to point out that Obfuscating Stupidity and Obfuscating Insanity typically work by hiding subtle depths and intelligence behind an extremely unsubtle mask.

MrsRatched Judging you from Nowhere Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Judging you
#3: Sep 1st 2012 at 6:47:11 AM

Subtlely is basically avoid Viewers Are Morons ans bordering, slightly crossing Viewers Are Geniuses

edited 1st Sep '12 6:47:37 AM by MrsRatched

Haw Haw Haw
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#4: Sep 1st 2012 at 7:21:58 AM

There is no one thing that defines subtlety or its lack, and one can attempt to be subtle and fail miserably. However, if you want a basic idea of what "being subtle" implies... have you ever read or watched something and had a fact slowly come to dawn on you without it ever actually being spelled out?

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#5: Sep 1st 2012 at 7:24:45 AM

Methods Of Rationality. While it happens in-universe to the characters themselves fairly often, the book has a lot of re-read value because of how one's perspective may change.

But isn't that just Fridge Brilliance?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#7: Sep 1st 2012 at 7:35:06 AM

^ Go too far however and subtlety inspires Mind Screw.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#8: Sep 1st 2012 at 8:03:29 AM

[up]Do you know how many re-watches and reading of additional material it took me to understand Ghost In The Shell? And I'm just talking about the film here.

It would be nice to be subtle and yet have the viewer understand you in one go, wouldn't it?

I'm starting to think that the accusation of "lack of subtlety" occurs when a viewer percieves that the creators of the show want them to feel a specific emotion about something, or take a specific view, and feel a rebellious contrariness to this, instead of allowing themselves to be led. Basically it's less of an accusation of "you don't hide your game very well" and more of a "you are handling me so roughly and clumsily that I just refuse to follow where you lead, because I percieve it as you forcing your will on me, and I feel that you are not worthy of doing that: I do not trust you".

As tropes are concerned, Silk Hiding Steel is the personification of subtlety, yes? But the problem with subtlety is that you have to tailor it to your viewer: it's definitely gonna fly completely over some people, and the subtler you are the greater the peril.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
darthnazgul darthnazgul Since: Oct, 2011
darthnazgul
#9: Sep 1st 2012 at 8:30:18 AM

To be honest, I myself feel like I'm having troubles with subtlety and my writing. I've always been a very visual sort of person, I can easily make something subtle in film or television. However, with plain old text it's a lot more difficult for me. I'm not too sure if I'm being Captain Obvious or far too subtle for even me to realise it all.

My name is darthnazgul and TV Tropes has ruined my life.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#10: Sep 1st 2012 at 1:50:47 PM

Personally, I make a fair bit of use of 'subtlety', but that's not really the term I would use for it - it's more accurate to call it complexity.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11: Sep 1st 2012 at 5:25:12 PM

You mean subtlety as in "successfully leading the audience to feel the way they want to feel without them noticing" or as in "making complicated points that take a lot of thought to unravel"?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#12: Sep 1st 2012 at 7:42:13 PM

@Handle: Sorta—I feel like subtlety in writing is more a case of writing so that the reader comes to the same conclusions as you do, without you necessarily telling them what that conclusion is. For subtlety with regards to emotions, it's kind of like that; I think unsubtle emotional handling does create a jarring effect, of the "Why should I feel the way you tell me to, huh?" But it's not necessarily about rough handling, either, since if the text lacks sufficient evidence to back up the way we've been told to feel, then we won't agree with the author's statement simply because we've been given no evidence to support their point.

But with things such as plot twists and revolutions, where "subtlety" is used for things such as Foreshadowing, then the lack of subtlety is infuriating because it does give away the game too early. If we know what's going to happen, then there's no incentive for us to read on, and we feel annoyed that we have to sit through the tedium of the rest of the story just to reach the conclusion we know is coming. But if the foreshadowing does require that thought to figure out, we'll probably guess at it close to the same time the characters do. We get to experience both a satisfying build-up, and we feel clever that we figured it out when the clues weren't that obvious.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#13: Sep 2nd 2012 at 7:11:05 AM

You know subtle and complicated aren't quite the same, right?

edited 2nd Sep '12 7:11:22 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#14: Sep 2nd 2012 at 7:24:13 AM

But they often go hand in hand.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#15: Sep 2nd 2012 at 8:29:33 AM

The best riddles are those whose answer seems obvious, in retrospect.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#16: Sep 2nd 2012 at 11:38:43 AM

The purpose of fiction (well, a purpose) is to inspire emotions and sensations. Being excessively unsubtle in how you do this can backfire on you because people don't like being forced into things. A "YOU WILL EMOTE NAO" boot to the back of the head is as likely to cause derision as its intended effect - it feels hollow, clumsy, and artificial compared to a more subtle, nuanced approach that simply guides the reader towards a given conclusion (if it offers any conclusion at all, and doesn't just let the reader make up their own mind).

What's precedent ever done for us?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#17: Sep 2nd 2012 at 11:52:44 AM

Then again, one can be too subtle. One of the things I hate about Suzumiya Haruhi and Jacques Prevert alike is that they're too minimalistic, give me practically no cues as to the emotional content of what's going on, and make me feel like I'm in the emotional equivalent of the Featureless Plane of Disembodied Dialogue.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#18: Sep 2nd 2012 at 12:15:46 PM

[up]Right, it can be a careful balance you need to maintain, but that's still no excuse for having zero subtlety whatsoever, unless you want to deliberately invoke that 'no, fuck off, stop trying to tell me how to feel' reaction for whatever reason.

What's precedent ever done for us?
FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#19: Sep 2nd 2012 at 5:59:55 PM

I didn't say anything about complexity. But yeah, conveying emotions in writing is almost a More than Mind Control deal. You set out to make the reader feel a specific way, but you can't just tell them to feel that way because not only is it over-forceful, it gives them no reason to feel that way. So you've got to give them those reasons and show off stuff, giving them reasons to feel that way, so they decide to feel that way on their own.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
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