Welcome to the Content Violations Discussion forum, where we discuss whether a work violates The Content Policy.
Remember that the forum rules apply here
, plus the following:
- You don't PM moderators about stuff pertaining to the policies, except for thread reasons;
- We tolerate links to scanlation sites unlike in the rest of the site due to its purpose, although it's preferred to remove them when they have done their jobs;
- The forum is not a soapbox for your own views on the policy or on morality. Please leave them at the door.
Violations of these rules can result in a ban from the subforum, or from the entire forum.
Otherwise:
Also, keep in mind that there are works that we don't want flagged without a really good reason as they are not likely in violation of policy:
- Is a film rated below "R" for U.S. distribution.
- Is a show that can be aired on prime time television.
- Is a video game that is rated below "M" by the ESRB.
- Is a written work that is sold in major bookstores without an "adult" or "mature" label.
- Is an anime/manga/etc. that is approved for U.S. import as a non-adult work.
- Is read/shown/taught in high school or below.
- Is in another format and meets equivalent criteria.
What we're looking for:
- Pure porn, or porn with an Excuse Plot only,
- Anything that has explicit underage sex,
- Implied sex of preteens or younger, and
- Fanservice intended to cater to pedophiles (lolicon and shotacon fanservice can count).
A couple of guidelines so the procedure can move smoothly:
- Do not list whole indexes or works just because they are on a certain index or have lolicon, H-Game or shotacon on their trope list.
- Do not list works you know nothing about without at least reading the trope page.
- Do not list works that you know are G-rated but you find creepy.
- If it's paedophile-pandering approximately how old are the characters involved? What happens? Is it graphic? Is it merely implied?
- List what objectionable content there is, and how much of the work consists of that.
- If it's entirely sex, say so. People have different ideas of what porn is. We all have the same idea of what a work being entirely sex scenes is.
- If you're not sure about a work, say so, or ask someone who does know that work. But don't make blanket accusations. Post here: "I don't know about this work, but the page says X".
- Google and Wikipedia are your friendsnote . Do a little digging on works you aren't sure about.
Also, in the case of H Games, there is this questioning to fill up:
- When are the sex scenes located?
- Are they spread out over the game?
- How much gameplay is there between sex scenes?
- Are they only at the endings?
- How hard do you have to work to get an ending?
- Are they in every ending? Every good ending?
- Are the sex scenes optional via a choice in the menu?
- Would the story make sense without them with minimal or no rewriting?
- Are the scenes made up of stills, or are they animated?
- How explicit are the sex scenes?
- This isn't a headcount. Your opinion is only considered if it explains in at least some detail how you came to the conclusion that the work is/isn't porn/paedopandering.
- When a moderator determines that the discussion has yielded a consensus, they can enact its conclusion/ask a moderator to enact the conclusion.
- The discussion is only about whether the work qualifies as porn or as paedopandering. We don't assess anything else in this process.
.
Q: Why is this happening?
A: Concerning the porn, it tends to attract creepy edits that have brought us into issues with the adservers while not significantly contributing to our core purpose - tropology. Concerning paedophilia-pandering, such works are just plain creepy to have pages about.
Q: What can I do to help clean the site?
A: You can flag content as unsuitable using the flag tool, which is located in the Tools menu to the right of each article, keeping the criteria in mind. Also, you can help enforce No Lewdness, No Prudishness across the wiki, possibly though cleaning pages listed in this Long Term Projects thread.
Q. This episodic work isn't finished yet. Shouldn't we wait for the ending before discussing it?
A. No. If released instalments may violate the content policy, we want to take action as soon as that's established — we don't need to wait for the ending. We can always revisit a decision to cut or keep once the work is over, but that point might still be years or decades away.
Q: This work is not actually/primarily pornographic. Why was it cut?
A: This could be for a number of different reasons. If the work was deemed to be paedopandering, for example, it will be cut whether or not it's actually sexually explicit. Being pro-paedophilia or pandering to paedophiles is bad enough, even if the work is nominally anti-paedophilia. Of course, it's possible that there was a mistake and then you should appeal it - please check the reasons first, however.
Q: This work is being/has been cut, but it is not a violation of the Content Policy. How do I make an appeal?
A: Flag the work page using the button in the sidebar and state your reasons for restoration.
Q: This work is pretty much pure porn, but it's really good porn. Can an exception be made?
A: Nope, sorry. If it's mainly porn, it goes.
Q: Why would you cut this? In [culture x], it is totally acceptable.
A: The vast majority of our readers come from the Americas or Western Europe, so we will be adhering to what could broadly be termed "Western" standards. This means we will not be permitting works which sexualize 12 year olds, and nor will we be demanding that every picture of a woman on the site must wear a burqa.
Q: How can you possibly claim to know authorial intent? (Roland Barthes is my co-pilot.)
A: It is not important what the authorial intent was, only the outcome.
Q: Wikipedia have articles on all kinds of awful stuff. Why can't we do the same?
A: Wikipedia is a strictly academic site. They have to cite sources and a "no censorship rule". They also do not aim to be Family Friendly, and are not reliant upon third party ads for funding. Conversely, one of our stated aims is to celebrate fiction, and our generally light, non-negative tone is a reflection of this, which has led to much more gushing about inappropiate content.
Q: So should I take every article here as an endorsement of whatever it describes?
A: No, of course not. We have pages on Greedy Jew, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf after all. However, if we choose to focus our attention on schoolgirls' thighs or porn, it does reflect very poorly on us. Fan Fic Recommendations are a slightly different issue. If a work is recommended there, this should be taken as an endorsement by the troper who wrote it.
Q: Are we allowed to make forum threads about works processed by the Content Violation Discussions forum?
A: If it was voted "clean and keep", a forum thread is relatively safe as long as it is restricted to talking about the clean parts. Anything with a stronger judgement is discouraged on the forums.
Q: Where can I find decisions regarding a work?
A: They are linked from the discussion page. Sometimes the old list of content reviews or the thread list in this forum can help as well.
Q: I still have some questions/concerns.
A: We will be happy to answer them. There is a thread for this.
- Guro: Violence played for titillation. (contrast Gorn)
- 5P or P5: The panel that administered the policy prior to the review system being overhauled in 2022. See 5P.
- P(a)edoshit: Older term for "P(a)edopandering", deprecated for being inflammatory.
- Porn: A work mostly concerned with sexual arousal. Having NSFW or explicit scenes doesn't automatically make a work porn — it's when showcasing explicit scenes is the entire point of the work.
Also, questions about the policy can be asked here. They will be added to this thread's FAQ section once answered.
Edited by Mrph1 on May 5th 2024 at 6:00:30 PM
It's a bird.
This is surprising. Phrases like this one:
...sort of give me the opposite impression.
Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Lost in Space
It's fairly simple: if your objection to the Content Policy is based on your personal views on censorship or morality, then you might as well not bother. You are allowed to have those opinions, but we won't consider them, and arguing for them incessantly will get you censured.
edited 16th Mar '16 1:22:43 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I did recommend putting in that policy, by the way, in order to stop arguments about morality in general.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
It's a bird.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Forgive me if I'm sounding stupid here, but what else could they be based on? This sounds a lot like "Yes, except no" to me.
Lost in Space
I refuse to engage in arguments of hypotheticals. What is your issue? If it's a principled stand against censorship, then don't bother. If it's an argument that the exploitation of childrens' sexuality should be acceptable in society, then please see a psychiatrist before you get showcased on To Catch a Predator.
edited 16th Mar '16 1:37:07 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
It's a bird.
First of all, I'm not a rapist. Assumptions like that are rude and hurtful, and won't make you sound any more convincing.
I don't really disagree with the policy as such. The ban on pornographic content (although I personally think it's silly) is perfectly reasonable. I'll admit that the limits on discussion topics is something I find disturbing, but I can live with that too.
Completely refusing to listen to criticism, or responding to any hints of it with passive-aggressive accusations, on the other hand, only serves to make you look bad.
To be perfectly honest, I don't have the energy to fight you. (And it would probably be completely pointless anyway, since you could just ban me and move on with your life with zero consequences.) I just wanted to confirm my suspicions and get some kind of final answer.
Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Lost in Space
So, you didn't actually have anything to say; you just wanted to bait out our position so you could use it to confirm your existing biases. Got it. Thanks for participating. It's been lovely.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
It's a bird.
I'm sorry. It's possible that I overreacted, and I apologize if it seems like I was just trying to provoke you. I really only wanted some answers.
I get that this is a sensitive subject, and I understand your reaction, but I'm really trying my hardest to go about this in a polite and sensible way, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same in return.
Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Essentially, the issue is this: We (the veterans on this forum) have already had several hellthreads' worth of argument over the policy, in particular, over the idea of censorship. The admins and mods don't want pedo or pornographic material on the site at all, and objections to censorship on principle have already been rejected several times - it's essentially an issue that most of us who are left are tired of discussing, and the first principles of the rule really are not up for debate, so we give canned responses, or else Fighteer gets unnecessarily annoyed at the newbie who's asking the question.
This is compounded by the fact that a lot of the time, people like you are not asking for clarification, they're trying to pick a fight - they want to push their own viewpoint over the existing status quo. So we get a bit xenophobic about newbies who kick this can of worms. This page may help: http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/LandMine
edited 17th Mar '16 10:45:59 AM by Ramidel
Basically, Corvidae, I don't think you were being rude or trying to bait anyone, but there have been lots of people in the past who were. For most tropers, especially new ones, it's a topic that we deal with very rarely (largely due to the content standards), but the mods have had to deal with it quite a lot, and your first conversation with the mods about it is probably their thousandth, sort of thing.
The thing is, the site content standards aren't just a group of people enforcing arbitrary standards of morality; a lot of the content standards are enforced by advertisers and so on. TV Tropes has no moral obligation to democracy when it comes to the written codes of conduct and content standards.
It's been fun.
In Love with Homura and Love itself.
What exactly is TV Tropes official definition of "Fanservice intended to cater to pedophiles"? It's clear that whatever it is it's not allowed. It's clear that some things that would be allowed if all of the characters involved were adults are banned if some of the characters involved are children but what exactly are they? What counts as fanservice? How do you tell if it's intended to cater to pedophiles? what does TV Tropes mean by pedophile?
This is the ultimate state of human emotion. More passionate than hope. Far deeper than despair. It is Love.
Red Like Santa
Basically, fanservice of people under the age of 16. The only exception is if it's aimed at a younger audience, not adults.
Now known as Cyber Controller
In Love with Homura and Love itself.
What is considered to be fanservice and how do you tell if it is aimed at adults?
This is the ultimate state of human emotion. More passionate than hope. Far deeper than despair. It is Love.
Fanservice: "We know it when we see it."
Aimed at adults: Well, if it's in a work marketed at the teenage demographic, fanservice of teenagers is probably targeted at their age group.
In short, these are the kind of things the P5 has to make judgment calls on.
Yeah, that matter is what the P5 have authority over. it's their job to review and judge those cases.
It's been fun.
Impossibility of exact precision for the low end sexual content works is why we have a committee rather than one person checking the guidelines.
Lost in Space
The sexualization of children in media is something we have to take very seriously. We wrote up a more comprehensive set of guidelines somewhere, which I don't feel like directly citing, but will paraphrase:
- Graphic sexual depictions of teenagers are generally forbidden.
- Any sexual depiction of a preteen is generally forbidden.
What we consider a sexual depiction is a scene intended to cause arousal in an audience. This isn't just actual sex and/or nudity but also things like panty shots. Context is taken into consideration.
For purposes of animated media, the actual age of the character is not relevant; the depicted age matters. So if a 700-year old alien manifests as a ten-year old, it is subject to the same level of scrutiny.
edited 17th Mar '16 12:56:01 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Just read through some of the older threads if you want a sense of how the P5 has worked in the past. Some of the edge cases have required a fair amount of argument (and alcohol) before a final decision could be made, particularly H-games.
It's a bird.
Thank you for clearing things up a bit. Like I said, while I may not agree with all of your policies, they are generally pretty reasonable, and I will accept them. (Your site, your rules. Google's calling the shots, etc. It's all perfectly understandable.)
With that being said, disagreeing with the content policy, wanting to discuss a banned topic, being a fan of works that have been deemed inappropriate for the site, or even having a creepy fetish or two, (and yes, I happen to belong to all of those categories, so this isn't just hypothetical) does not automatically make a person a potential rapist in need of therapy.
This is actually sort of acknowledged on the site, if you know where to look, but it could definitely be made a bit more obvious to avoid further misunderstandings.
That's all I really wanted to say. Feel free to ignore this, or hate me or whatever (I've certainly done a fair bit of that myself), but I had to at least try.
Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I'd like to note one thing that seems to have been missed, and which Corvidae may not be aware of: Some past judgement calls that led to axing some works have eventually been reversed when it was determined that the judgement call was based on either insufficient information, or it was pointed out that it was made by admin fiat without any actual deliberation process being done (most of such examples happened in the earlier days of the "purges", back when there was a lot of chaos, panic, and/or excessive zeal going on).
edited 18th Mar '16 6:07:10 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Lost in Space
You are correct, but it is a point of view that we will not entertain here.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Yeah, early days after the incident were like shoving anything that could possibly be incriminating under the carpet.
It's a bird.
If I am not allowed to defend myself, all I can do is make an appeal to your empathy and beg (yes, beg, because I realize I have no leverage whatsoever here) you to avoid such accusations in the future. Please.
Don't beg, it's not necessary.
Insulting him and telling him to see a therapist before he became a rapist was an unwarranted insult on your part, Fighteer. Please don't descend to personal insults of that nature again.
edited 18th Mar '16 10:20:55 AM by Ramidel
That said, certain elements of the Content Policy are inherently riskier to criticize than others, for obvious reasons, so proceed at your discretion when it comes to them and be careful with how you voice your disgreement, to avoid unfortunate misunderstandings.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.