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Total posts: [66]  1

Duplicate Trope: Recycled In Space get usage counts

I need to see some pretty powerful evidence of problems to support messing with this trope in any way.
World's Toughest Milkman
I don't think we need a bright line between this and Whole Plot Reference. They're two separate things that can and do overlap, but don't have to. Many of Shakespeare's plays are a Whole Plot Reference to earlier works, but don't update the setting, so they're not Recycled In. Forbidden Planet is both a Whole Plot Reference to The Tempest and Recycled IN SPACE! (literally). But Star Trek is Recycled IN SPACE! but not Whole Plot Reference. The concepts are orthogonal, even though they frequently overlap.

BTW, if no one objects in the next day or two, I'm going to go ahead and make Recycled In a redirect.

edited 14th Aug '12 2:21:35 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
 28 Mag Bas, Tue, 14th Aug '12 2:24:16 PM from In my house
About the second thing mentioned in the first post, quoting the own description of the trope, in "Some common things to avoid" :

"If an idea seems to be ripping off another idea, it's Better by a Different Name. It needs to be blatant in its advertising that it is a copy for it to count. You could argue that "Eragon was better when it was called Star Wars" but since nothing ever advertises the similarities, it doesn't count as this."

Dragon Writer
It needs to be blatant in its [own] advertising that it is a copy for it to count.
That almost never happens.
From here on out, what this trope is a good pothole, I use X Meets Y instead. Wonder if this trope is Pothole Abuse?
It doesn't have to be in its own advertising.

I think the big point here is Recycled In doesn't mean the story is recycled plot point for plot point (that's a Whole Plot Reference). It means the general structure and concept is recycled.

For example: The Jetsons is Father Knows Best Recycled In SPACE. The Flintstones is The Honeymooners Recycled In The Stone Age. Star Trek (the original series) was pitched as "Wagon Train to the stars". In each case, the plots are not being duplicated from the original shows; only the general concepts.

I think it's difficult for a movie to be Recycled In SPACE without being a Whole Plot Reference, but TV shows do it all the time.

edited 20th Aug '12 8:15:21 AM by Escher

 32 Mag Bas, Mon, 20th Aug '12 9:33:19 AM from In my house
Word of God confirmed The Jetsons status as The Flintstones Recycled IN SPACE!. Source to it being Father Knows Best Recycled IN SPACE!?

edited 20th Aug '12 9:34:43 AM by MagBas

World's Toughest Milkman
[up][up]It's not just individual works. General storylines and archetypes can be Recycled IN SPACE!. For example, the Hardboiled Detective Recycled In a Standard Fantasy Setting. (See how handy my new redirect can be?) :)

An individual film can't recycle a specific work without being an instance of Whole Plot Reference as well (generally speaking), but it can recycle broad storylines and archetypes without being a Whole Plot Reference.

Hence, the two tropes can and do overlap, but don't have to. Recycled IN SPACE! is a setting trope; Whole Plot Reference is a plot trope.

X Meets Y is a broader trope, but I don't think it refers to settings in general. One wouldn't say "the Hardboiled Detective meets a Standard Fantasy Setting", though one might say "the Hardboiled Detective meets High Fantasy". But that's not quite the same thing. And X Meets Y is definitely not the same thing as Whole Plot Reference, so I think we have three distinct tropes here. Just as we should.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
[up][up]Uh... my mom, I think? I dunno. She coulda been wrong.

The formula is virtually identical, though, with the "wisecracking eldest son" replaced by Astro and the youngest being a boy instead of a girl.

edited 20th Aug '12 1:11:31 PM by Escher

 35 RJ Savoy, Mon, 20th Aug '12 4:54:01 PM from Edinburgh Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Could we keep Recycled IN SPACE! but restrict it to that particular one, since it is the single most common, and create a supertrope "Recycled In" for anything else?
even older skool
[up] We could, but it seems slightly pointless. The trope is essentially the same whether or not space is involved. If the page gets overcrowded or something we could split it, but it's still one trope with unlimited "variations" in the new setting. The use of the word "space" in the name isn't particularly misleading (unless a wick check demonstrates otherwise) and it's no more non-indicative than many other tropes.

World's Toughest Milkman
Changes I think are worth making:

Clarify in the description that this is distinct from, and can overlap with, Whole Plot Reference.

Rewrite the whole paragraph about how Eragon doesn't fit to explain the real reason: "Eragon was better when it was called Star Wars" is not an example because neither of those is a setting. Eragon might be Star Wars Recycled In a Standard Fantasy Setting, though. (I dunno—I haven't read or seen it.)

Put it on the Settings index.

Take it off The Dark Age of Animation index. (why is it even there?)

Aside from that, I'm not seeing much of anything that needs to be changed.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
 38 Mag Bas, Tue, 21st Aug '12 7:06:13 AM from In my house
[up]As the confusion about The Jetsons above hints, remove the "advertises the similarities" bit is risky. It is currently an objective trope, after all.

Why is X Meets Y a Just for Fun trope, when this isn't?

What is the difference between Recycled IN SPACE! and X Meets Y? We need to define that more clearly. I'm not sure I see it.

Is it just "Recycled IN SPACE! is X Meets Y where X is a specific franchise and Y is a setting?"

Now, the most important question, I think — does it have to be an intentional reference to that franchise? If Recycled IN SPACE! is just going to be a place where Tropers can say "hey, this looks like my favorite show, but in another setting!", it should probably be a Just for Fun page like X Meets Y.

Yes, this trope has to be intentional. That distinguishes it from X Meets Y.

edited 7th Sep '12 10:52:18 AM by Routerie

World's Toughest Milkman
[up]Agreed, though "advertised" might still be too strict a requirement. Word of God should probably count, and possibly scene-for-scene copying, or blatant references, as with Lost in Space.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
What if the work is advertised like the trope? Must be by the network, not a fan.
 43 Mag Bas, Fri, 28th Sep '12 8:01:55 PM from In my house

Starting to think the examples are part in[universe, part intended by the creators, and mostly Fridge Logic examples. The latter should be cut. What to do?
 45 lu 127, Fri, 14th Dec '12 5:15:46 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
 46 Septimus Heap, Fri, 14th Dec '12 5:41:01 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I move to close this thread. There is no clear indication of a problem that needs fixing, plus X Meets Y is a Just for Fun page.

 47 Mag Bas, Fri, 14th Dec '12 5:44:00 AM from In my house
 48 Septimus Heap, Fri, 14th Dec '12 5:56:08 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Which is why we can't merge them.

World's Toughest Milkman
There's still the issues I raised in post #37. Most of which is about clarifying things, but we need to be sure that none of the clarifications change the definition, or if they do, that we have consensus about the changes.

eta: My first suggestion there, "Clarify in the description that this is distinct from, and can overlap with, Whole Plot Reference" is close enough to being an actual change that I think it's worth keeping in TRS. That is, it's a change to the current definition, even if it's not (I believe) a change to the intended definition. If we can agree on (or reject) that point, I think everything else can be handled without TRS.

edited 14th Dec '12 4:04:24 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
[up]Could you please write out a draft of your suggested change for us to discuss? Otherwise, I think we can close this or bump it over to the Trope Description improvement thread.

edited 29th Jan '13 10:42:13 AM by Catbert

Total posts: 66

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