Real Life People Cleanup Project

President Lincoln◊, upon election. Lincoln a few years into his presidency.◊

A while back I made a page for Newt Gingrich solely because he co-authored some historical fiction and sci-fi books I like. It subsequently became a much longer page about his whole political career and was deleted at some point. Is it possible to have a page again if it was just for him as a creator? The other co-author page is still there and it was more or less the same material on it.

It would have to be locked after creation. Make sure to put it in the proper namespace, too. Remember what happened to Uwe Boll.

Roger roger.

So, what are the options we're mulling regarding real people that aren't creators?

If we are going to keep at least some of them, I'd suggest at least three fictional depictions of said president. This would eliminate worrying about biographies and the like while still allowing for fictional depictions centered upon said figure (such as Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter). Moreover, it'd have to be depictions and not just mentions - this would allow us to weed out things like schools named after James K. Polk or Warren G. Harding (though, as a They Might Be Giants fan, I will shed a tear for losing mention of Polk - I have at least three versions of that song).

I am erasing the content of this post and rewriting it. I just smacked myself with a wet noodle for not reading Historical Domain Character thoroughly first.

There are two classifications of person here:

• A person who writes, produces, or acts in media. Those go in Creator.
• A real person who appears in media as themselves or a reasonable facsimile thereof. Those go in Useful Notes.

Accordingly, everything in Historical Domain Character should go to Useful Notes. We should erase all tropes in the article that refer to them in real life, and stick solely to the fictional versions.

edited 21st Jun '12 1:28:08 PM by Fighteer

1. Whether a RL item has enough fictional (mis)representation that it warrants a page would probably be YKTTW (or Trope Repair) work.
2. I am not opposed at having both Useful Notes and /Main/ articles for items that warrant both an Useful Note and are Historical Domain Characters; the /Main/ article with the fictional depiction and the /UsefulNotes/ one with the real one.

edited 21st Jun '12 1:25:21 PM by SeptimusHeap

I rewrote my post. I was vastly overthinking things.

I am not convinced that Historical Domain Characters and Public Domain Characters are tropes. The reason is that different works often portray and interpret these figures in very different ways.

For example, the King Arthur in 2004's King Arthur movie was a Roman officer and an action hero, making him a much different character than the one from First Knight, who was an old and famous king of a mythic Dark-Age Britain (more or less the "classic" Arthur of the medieval Chivalric Romances). If King Arthur is a trope, do the two works really use the same trope?

edited 21st Jun '12 2:15:00 PM by LordGro

Well, the use of King Arthur is instantly recognizable as a pattern in media, regardless of his specific portrayal, so it's definitely a trope.

But an idea of who or what King Arthur is is relevant to the trope, isn't it? That the name is recognizable doesn't mean that everyone thinks about the same things when he hears "King Arthur".

In other words, what would/should the trope definition of a trope named King Arthur actually say?

And King Arthur is an extremely well-known character, but there are many listed on Historical Domain Character that are much more obscure and so, not instantly recognizable.

edited 21st Jun '12 2:32:06 PM by LordGro

So I'd have no problem with trimming it down a bit. Just be careful of cultural myopia.

In response to your edit, which I didn't catch at first, the King Arthur article should discuss the fact that he is a Public Domain Character and talk a little about the myth, then start listing out his appearances as examples. We would probably want to write a UsefulNotes.King Arthur article that has all the historical information, if people would find that useful.

The thing about King Arthur, like Dracula, is that there really is no "real person" that forms the core of the myth. While Dracula is notionally based on Vlad Tepes, the idea of the character itself is more of a Public Domain Character than an Historical Domain Character.

In fact, that is the distinction we could draw. If it is a real person who verifiably existed, it's Historical Domain Character and goes in Useful Notes. If it's a Public Domain Character who is more or less entirely fictional, then it goes in Main as a trope. If it's a PDC that is based on someone who may or may not have existed in real life, then we can discuss the mythos as an HDC, under Useful Notes.

edited 21st Jun '12 3:17:40 PM by Fighteer

I realize I have been derailing the thread. You're right, fictional and real life "domain characters" should be treated differently.

Your solution seems right, I can get behind that.

That sounds like the ideal solution—in fact, that's sort of how I thought things worked already....

That approach sounds reasonable to me.

How do we deal with a trope list like Barack Obama, though? It looks weird on Useful Notes.

And do we agree on this notability standard "three works (or work pages) that reference the RL item, not just "<American President> School""?

Is there any reason why the tropes are needed at all?

I've been musing over that too. The big admin notice is what allows tropes in the first place.

How about creating a People namespace? It'd make far more sense than trying to awkwardly fit them into Useful Notes.

edited 22nd Jun '12 5:25:47 AM by Ekuran

No, it would be The Same But More Specific. And it was already brought up in another Wiki Talk thread and shouted down.

Besides, it's not only people we are talking about.

A People namespace gives the impression that we're interested in collecting articles about people in general. That's actually the opposite of the truth. Keeping them in Useful Notes makes it clear what the purpose is: to catalog information that's useful for people who want to write a story on a particular topic.

So, should we start working on a sandbox page for articles on Real Life people to move to Creators/, UsefulNotes/, or cut?

Sounds good. Or maybe a crowner to vote on which get moved and which get dumped.

I don't think that a 3 references limit needs a crowner.

Maybe so.

Sandbox is up at Sandbox.Real Life Persons To Be Moved From Main. Let me know if anyone has suggestions or comments.