Sexism and Men's Issues

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The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.

Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
Circumcision
Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
Sexual abuse of men.
Family law.
General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3

A procrastination in of itself

#14301: May 14th 2015 at 11:54:03 AM

Jeremy Kyle did something good... I knew I was in bizarro world over here the moment that bloody exit poll came out...

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

The Mod with the Migraine

#14302: May 15th 2015 at 12:47:03 PM

What does it mean to be a man, though the article is looking at it through a rather specific Christian viewpoint, it's not all that bad. The author openly acknowledges that men are privileged, and to be a good person means fighting against that kind of social injustice.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself

Absolutely no relation to NLK

#14303: May 15th 2015 at 3:46:14 PM

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.

OdinsLeftEye Nameless Hero from The RPG world Since: Mar, 2012

Nameless Hero

#14304: May 18th 2015 at 4:25:21 AM

Found this thru RW and thought it would be of interest: http://www.buzzfeed.com/adamserwer/how-mens-rights-leader-paul-elam-turned-being-a-deadbeat-dad#.tuDJy9j2YK It's a look at Paul Elam and what he's really like. Sorry if this or something like it has already been posted.

edited 18th May '15 4:26:17 AM by OdinsLeftEye

The name's Axel. Wanna check out Aim 4 The Head, my Zombie Apocalypse spoof comic?: http://www.smackjeeves.com/comicprofile.php?id=138048

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself

Unreasonably Quirky

#14305: May 19th 2015 at 6:19:53 PM

Oh, Christ, Buzzfeed. This is gonna be painful...

Elam’s takes on gender are often attractive to men dealing with the painful aftermath of divorces, custody battles, and rejection. He preaches the gospel that men’s failures and disappointments are not due to personal shortcomings or lapsed responsibility, but rather institutionalized feminism and a family court system rigged against dutiful fathers, as well as a world gripped by “misandry,” or the hatred of men.

Because there aren't any institutional biases against men in those areas. Nopity nope nope. I mean, it's not like divorced women are allowed, nay, encouraged to continually suck their ex-husbands dry for child support, even if they're in jail or HOMELESS. Geez, the way those wacky MR As talk, it's almost as if a woman can rape an underaged boy and then successfully sue her victim for child support money! Good thing THAT'S not true!

The men’s rights movement has some dedicated critics, such as David Futrelle, who has chronicled the movement’s rise on his blog, We Hunted The Mammoth, for years.

Oh, you mean the jackass who explicitly said that it's not rape when a woman forces a man to penetrate her◊, and only retracted his statement after his normally sycophantic followers called him out on it?

Now, exclusive interviews with Elam’s ex-wives and daughter and newly uncovered court records shed light on a man who, they told Buzz Feed News, has depended on and emotionally abused the women in his own life.

Because when looking for an objective viewpoint on a man's actions, there's no one more reliable than the man's ex-wife!

Men’s rights activists often cite the first time they realized it’s a woman’s world. They call these “red pill” moments, after the scene in The Matrix when the main character is faced with the decision to swallow a red pill and recognize the true nature of the world or take a blue pill and continue living a lie.

No. Wrong. Incorrect. The Red Pill and the men's rights movement are NOT the same. In fact, the Red Pill subreddit explicitly states that it has no interest in men's rights activism:

I'm not here to parade the concepts of Men's Rights- nor am I here to discuss self-improvement tips that /r/seduction now purports are to make you a better man, not get laid more often.

Now I've never been shy about mentioning that I think Elam just flat out sucks, and from the story, it does sound like Elam is in the wrong here, and abandoning his children was absolutely a dick move. But when he talks about how horribly fathers are treated by the family court system... well, he's not wrong.

“Susan has a history of promiscuity which never, to my knowledge now, ceased during the three years that we were married,” Elam wrote in the petition. He said he would take a paternity test, but that he felt he had “paid enough for the unfaithfulness” of his ex-wife.

Again, it seems like the Jerkass Has a Point. Why shouldn't he be allowed to take a paternity test to see if the kid is his?

There is a problem with the women in this culture… And the “freedom” women gained on this frenzied path of vengeance and victimization went to its final end? It doesn’t appear to have settled well. Women are growing increasingly violent. They are matching men in domestic violence, blow for blow, and they are causing the lions share of injury and death to children in the home.

These, I'll be the first to admit, are the unhinged ramblings of a raving lunatic. Yes, women commit domestic violence far more often than most people think, but to blame that fact on some "frenzied path to vengeance" is, well, questionable at best and misogynistic at worst.

Mothers are almost always the custodial parent in the event of a divorce, but the vast majority of custody arrangements are not contested,

Of course they're not. Why would you fight a battle you know you're going to lose anyway?

“You don’t have to look too hard to see that for the most part men are in charge of the Congress, of the major corporations, of income and wealth and opportunity, and at the same time a lot of men aren’t benefiting from that,” said Kim Gandy, a former president of the National Organization for Women who now runs the National Network to End Domestic Violence.

Oh, hey, the NNEDV. The same organization who has this◊ to say about male victims of domestic violence. Basically, their attitude can be summed up as, "okay, yeah, sometimes men are abused BUT WOMEN STILL HAVE IT WORSE SO SHUT UP."

Which, by the way, is debatable.

Many of the issues men’s rights activists point to are real, or at least grounded in reality: There is a growing gender gap in higher education — though an increasing number of both men and women are earning college degrees. Studies have found gender disparities in criminal justice sentencing that can be explained by multiple factors, but likely also involve internalized stereotypes about men and women. Men are actually less likely to attempt suicide but more likely to succeed at it. In a society where prison rape remains a familiar punch line, male victims of domestic and sexual violence are often ignored or stigmatized.

So here we see some acknowledgement from the writer that men's issues exist and that they matter, which is more than I can say for a lot of feminists. So, you know, props.

Other claims are less grounded. The Violence Against Women Act is so named because women still suffer the brunt of domestic violence

Citation: The National Task Force to End Sexual and Domestic Violence Against Women.

Kind of like proving that Apple's products are defective by citing a public statement from the CEO of Microsoft, wouldn't you say?

but gender nondiscrimination is written into the statute.

I don't know if this is a bug or whatever, but the article they link to here has nothing to do with VAWA. Besides, anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the Duluth Model would know that that statement is laughably untrue.

(Elam himself has written, “I am 6’8” tall and 285 pounds. If a woman five feet tall and 110 pounds soaking wet hits me, I am going to hit her back.”)

...and? What are they trying to say here? That if you're smaller than the person you're abusing, you should be allowed to hit them all you like and they're scum if they try to fight back?

By that logic, if Screech Powers got into an argument with, say, She Hulk, he'd be perfectly within his right to slap her, right? She's bigger and stronger so that makes it okay, right?

Men’s rights activists have attacked the “ever-expanding definition of rape, for women” by the Centers for Disease Control and the FBI, accusing them of ignoring male victims of sexual assault. Yet the definition of rape was indeed expanded in 2012 — to include men. The prior language defined rape as “the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will.”

Yes, and now it's "penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus". Which is, to be fair, definitely an improvement, since it includes men who were raped... by other men.

But a woman who drugs a 14 year old boy and goes to town on him? Nope. Not rape.

Last year, one podcast featuring Elam promised to help men deal with “crazy” women, positing that “getting rid of her without resorting to the use of duct tape, plastic bags, and shovels can get a lot more complicated.”

Again, this is why I think Elam is a scumbag. If that was a joke, it was in incredibly poor taste and it just makes him look like a psychopath.

But considering the fact that #Killallmen was turned into a popular hashtag, I don't think the anti-MRA crowd has any room to talk.

In 2011, after feminist writer Jessica Valenti’s personal information was added to Register Her and Elam went after her on his radio show (“We’re gonna be all over her like Ron Jeremy on a drug-addled bimbo,” he said, calling her a “chickenshit” and “scared little girl”), Valenti was so inundated with threats that she contacted the FBI and, she said, left her house until things died down.

It's a little difficult for me to sympathize with the woman who proudly proclaims to "bathe in male tears", but I will say that the verbal abuse she received at the hands of Elam's camp was absolutely inexcusable. Again, fuck Elam.

Last June’s international conference on men’s rights was not just an important moment for the movement, but also a bid for mainstream attention and acceptance. Originally slated for the Double Tree Hilton in Detroit, the conference had been moved after local feminist activists protested the venue and there was a demand for further security costs from the hotel after it was deluged with threats.

So Elam wanted to give a conference, but he was bombarded with death threats from people who just wanted to prevent him from speaking his mind. Looks like he and Valenti are Not So Different, eh?

And that's about all I have to say on the article. Overall, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but there were definitely some moments that reeked of bias.

It's really depressing that A Vf M is all we've got when it comes to mainstream men's rights activism. The movement deserves better than that.

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links

Jupiterian Local

#14306: May 19th 2015 at 7:37:36 PM

It's really depressing that AVfM is all we've got when it comes to mainstream men's rights activism. The movement deserves better than that.

Pretty much this. Men suffer from institutional sexism as well as women, and there's nothing wrong with a movement aiming to address that. Such a movement should logically not only coexist peacefully with, but in fact ally itself with the feminist movement; the two are complementary, not opposing. Instead we get a bunch of misogynist nutbags who have managed to taint not just the MRA name, but the entire concept of an organized movement in support of social issues facing men.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3

A procrastination in of itself

#14307: May 20th 2015 at 12:40:55 AM

Buzzfeed and Reddit? Who let the nutty parts of the internet in?

Because there aren't any institutional biases against men in those areas. Nopity nope nope

There are plenty, it's the idea that they're due to "institutionalized feminism", that's laughable. Feminism has been a good ally to breaking down gender roles for men, it's not (mainstream non-internet-nutjob feminists) enforcing stupid male gender roles on men.

It's really depressing that A Vf M is all we've got when it comes to mainstream men's rights activism.

No it's really depressing that people think that that's all we've got. A Vf M has nothing to do with men's rights, it's an anti-feminist group. You want a group campaigning for men? We've got a list somewhere, for now I can give you the Campaign Against Living Miserably[1], a group in the UK focused on men's mental health issues and the challenges men face seeking help, they put out little booklets at universities and everything.

I'll try and find the big list, I know it's somewhere.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself

Unreasonably Quirky

#14308: May 20th 2015 at 4:21:29 AM

The key word here is "mainstream". How many people have heard of the Campaign Against Living Miserably, compared to the number of people familiar with A Voice for Men?

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3

A procrastination in of itself

#14309: May 20th 2015 at 4:33:58 AM

In the real world? Probably more for CALM, seeing as they're a very active campaign in the UK (again they put out leaflets on mental health at unis). I know that there are more campaign groups out there, the list is somewhere in this thread actually.

Also I don't grant your premise that AVFM is a men's issues group, they may claim to be but what is the main focus of the group? Helping men or fighting feminists? I'm pretty sure it's the second. Now fighting the nutty parts of feminism may well be a good goal, but it's nothing to do with men's issues, especially when groups like AVFM are out there hurting men's issues by reinforcing the stupid painful gender roles that are hurting so many men.

Edit: Seriously, anyone got the bloody list? I thought I saved it somewhere but I can't find it. Didn't we used to have a notes feature or something?

edited 20th May '15 4:37:54 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself

Unreasonably Quirky

#14310: May 20th 2015 at 6:41:43 AM

In the real world? Probably more for CALM, seeing as they're a very active campaign in the UK (again they put out leaflets on mental health at unis).

How well known are they outside the UK?

Also I don't grant your premise that AVFM is a men's issues group, they may claim to be but what is the main focus of the group? Helping men or fighting feminists? I'm pretty sure it's the second.

I don't dispute that, but I'm talking about how they're viewed. If you call yourself a men's rights activist in public, you'll probably either get laughed at or spat on. And why? Because when most people think of men's rights, they don't think of CALM or The Good Men Project. They either think of A Voice for Men or that stupid "meninist" hashtag that was trending a couple months ago.

especially when groups like AVFM are out there hurting men's issues by reinforcing the stupid painful gender roles that are hurting so many men.

Okay, I don't deny that AVFM is a scummy organization, but how are they reinforcing gender roles?

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3

A procrastination in of itself

#14311: May 20th 2015 at 6:57:16 AM

So don't use the term "Men's Right Activist", go for "Person who cares about men's issues", MRA isn't the only term out there, I don't like changing term because a group of assholes have hijacked the term but they kinda have, it's not worth the fight.

How well known are they outside the UK?

No idea, I like in the UK, so someone else will have to comment on that.

but how are they reinforcing gender roles?

Beyond their aggressive hatred of all feminism (a movement largely about the breaking down of gender roles), a lot of their writing harkens back to the idea of women having a proper 'place' and men having another 'place'. The focus of a lot of their 'advise' seem to be on being a stereotypical 'man' to become 'better'. Plus there's the overlap that it has with a lot of proponents of toxic ideas of masculinity.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!

Queen of Good Things, Honest

#14312: May 20th 2015 at 9:11:30 AM

It's not even really a hijack. Most people never heard the phrase "Men's Rights Activist" until groups like AVFM came about. That's the main reason I'm comfortable with people genuinely passionate about issues affecting men finding a different term: rather than being hijacked by hate groups, that one appears to have actually been invented by them.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3

A procrastination in of itself

#14313: May 20th 2015 at 9:56:59 AM

rather than being hijacked by hate groups, that one appears to have actually been invented by them.

That's what I see with the term SJW but I've been told that I'm wrong.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014

#14314: May 20th 2015 at 11:37:02 AM

Mmmmmm, so what would be a good name for men activist who doent implie and anti-feminist agenda?

edited 20th May '15 11:38:21 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!

Queen of Good Things, Honest

#14315: May 20th 2015 at 12:06:08 PM

The difference is that SJW is a pejorative term.

MRA was invented to self-identify. SJW was invented to insult.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself

Unreasonably Quirky

#14316: May 20th 2015 at 2:46:10 PM

Mmmmmm, so what would be a good name for men activist who doent implie and anti-feminist agenda?

Men's issues activist? I think that has a nice ring to it.

Beyond their aggressive hatred of all feminism (a movement largely about the breaking down of gender roles)

...for women.

If they really are concerned about helping men, they've sure got a funny way of showing it.

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job

The law in the night

#14317: May 20th 2015 at 3:19:36 PM

I don't think that people will see Men Issues Activists as anything other than Missing in Action.

edited 20th May '15 3:20:16 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012

#14318: May 20th 2015 at 3:21:50 PM

Not to mention that it's already taken as an acronym.

edited 20th May '15 3:22:25 PM by Quag15

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3

A procrastination in of itself

#14319: May 20th 2015 at 3:55:17 PM

The difference is that SJW is a pejorative term.

We disagree on this. to avoid rehashing old ground let's just say that we both have our positions and seem unable to convince the other.

so what would be a good name for men activist who doent implie and anti-feminist agenda?

Men's Issues seems to be the one that's gained ground, as MIA is kinda used for a bunch of things Men's Issues Campaigner or "MIC" could work.

...for women.

There's a knock on effect, the more women become breadwinners the more men can become caregivers. Plus while some feminists don't push for Men's Issues some do, look at Emma Watson coming out hard against society for not valuing her father's role as a parent. We've got a lot of overlap and allies within feminism and going after people who are fighting our fight alongside the feminist fight is counter productive.

edited 20th May '15 3:55:42 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?

#14320: May 20th 2015 at 4:45:17 PM

Women are not obligated to advocate for men's rights any more than Chinese Americans are obligated to advocate for Latino American rights.

The mark of a human rights advocate is that regardless of their focus, they do not allow that to come at the expense of other groups even if they do not include those groups in their focus.

As Silas pointed out, many of these groups have overlapping goals and it is by attacking the problems from multiple perspectives, these problems can be solved faster and for the benefit of the whole.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself

Unreasonably Quirky

#14321: May 20th 2015 at 5:16:19 PM

There's a knock on effect, the more women become breadwinners the more men can become caregivers.

In theory, yes. In practice, it doesn't seem like that's happened. While it's become socially acceptable for women to be career- driven, men in any sort of childcare occupation, be it teacher, daycare worker or house-husband, are seen as spineless weenies at best and goddamn pedophiles at worst.

Plus while some feminists don't push for Men's Issues some do, look at Emma Watson coming out hard against society for not valuing her father's role as a parent.

The problem is that for every Emma Watson, there are like a dozen Bahar Mustafas.

(Can you believe there's actually a hashtag dedicated to DEFENDING that piece of filth?)

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3

A procrastination in of itself

#14322: May 20th 2015 at 5:35:41 PM

In theory, yes. In practice, it doesn't seem like that's happened.

It's not as great an effect as I'd like I admit. That's why we need a good grassroots groundgame, because while we get the odd benefit from Feminism we need our own movement for our own issues. Now to go back to my wider point, AVFM do men seeking to break down gender roles no good by aggressively campaigning against pretty much all Feminism.

The problem is that for every Emma Watson, there are like a dozen Bahar Mustafas.

I'd question that number, but even if it is true (which I don't think it is), I'm pretty confident that the Emma Watson's of the world have more than 12 times the influence, following as ability to bring about change.

(Can you believe there's actually a hashtag dedicated to DEFENDING that piece of filth?)

Yes, because Twitter. Seriously it's fucking Twitter, half the folks on there are trolls and half are the worst kind of bigiots and hate fuckers you'll find on the internet. Welcome to the uncivilised internet, there's a reason I stick to the civilised internet.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013

In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.

#14323: May 20th 2015 at 5:53:14 PM

That men who take on feminine roles are seen as weak, means that femininity is still seen as inferior to masculinity. So this is something feminism actually does adress.

edited 20th May '15 5:54:50 PM by Antiteilchen

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links

Jupiterian Local

#14324: May 20th 2015 at 5:56:16 PM

Again: feminism and a men's issues movement should be complimentary, not opposing. Just because there's overlap, or one tangentially helps the other, doesn't mean that there's not room for both or that only one is necessary.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013

In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.

#14325: May 20th 2015 at 6:02:11 PM

Of course. The thing about being labeled a pedophile is an issue that only affects men and needs to be adressed by men's issue... guys.

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