Star Fox / Metroid Crossover

1) Combining shoot em up + exploration isn't easy just because both happen to be futuristic. Besides like I said, Samus' part will outweight Star Fox part and some people might not like both of them.

2) Star Fox taking place in same universe as Metroid is little bit silly, though I guess it can work out... If games had expanded on Metroid universe before, if for example we are to expect Metroid manga to be canon we already have little green men so sure let's just add lylatians :p Like i said, it would make more sense with F-Zero.

3) Star Fox is cheese, even in Assault. Don't get me wrong, I likes Assault, but I wouldn't call it most well written story. Though admittedly, that might be just those silly combat armors that bother me Pilot coat design is cooler. Also, I don't like Metroid Prime games being counted as part of Metroid series, I consider them kind of separate.

1) I never said it had to be shoot 'em up. I see the space combat going off-rails on this one. It's just incompatible. I see a more open-world approach to the space combat echoing Metroid more for that but with the Star Fox mechanics and ships.

2) The F-zero thing was technically already done as James Mc Cloud from F-Zero was a not-quite cameo. IF they wanted to work it in, that would be a prequel to Star Fox. That's really the issue with that idea.

3) First, just because you have an issue with the Prime series, I must point out that you are a minority and if Retro is making these games then it will be Prime influenced. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I do like the "classic" Metroids, but the only one to reach the same level of popularity as the Primes was Super. That aside, I admit that the cheesiness of Star Fox is a problem. In fact I think the cheese is what is ultimately killing that franchise. In 64 it was that era's version of kitsch. It was passable, but as more nitty-gritty sci-fi action became mainstream in the 2000s it really hurt the series. A little bit could be left in (Falco seriously could fit in well with Metroid as is) but Slippy and Peppy need to be toned down for their series anyways. It's choking on it. Kid Icarus needs to be Nintendo's lulzy series now.

edited 26th May '12 10:29:45 PM by sirboulevard

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1) Then its not Star Fox game nor gameplay.

3) What? No, Star Fox cheese is good thing, it just becomes problem when they try to do serious storyline like in Command and Assault Original Star Fox's story with cheese was enough, with command and assault its little bit awkward

1) That's the same kind of argument that was made when Fallout 3 changed that game from an Isometric RPG to a 3D one. Genre shifts can work. I remember the same argument was made about Metroid Prime, actually.

3) But it ran it's course though. For a good comparison: the first 2 seasons of Star Trek The Next Generation was mostly rehashes of The Original Series episodes. Those seasons are generally considered to be the worst of that series, primarily because they were plots 15 years out of time. I like Star Fox 64 but Sci-Fi reached a new level of being treated as Serious Business in the last 10 years. It's not a judgement on better or worse, but one on what the demographics say needs to be done. In this case, Star Fox really needs to Take a Level in Badass and undergo some Cerebus Syndrome. There's a reason Nintendo has openly said they've considered canceling the whole series.

edited 26th May '12 11:14:16 PM by sirboulevard

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

1) You are assuming that everyone liked Fallout's genre shift

3) So you are saying things should be done in "What is most popular at the moment?" way? You probably have future in marketing industry

1) Let's not get into that. I'm already in a conversation about that on this forum. But it was sucessful and many fans did enjoy it. Hell the developers of the first two games even admit they really enjoyed 3. Genre shifts may be controversial but sometimes it's better than abandoning a great story or idea.

3) That is the problem. That level of cheese isn't marketable as a Sci-Fi game. Not in an era with the reimagined BSG, Mass Effect or Firefly. And yes when it comes to a crossover with these two series, getting a bit serious would be for the better. Star Fox's silliness reached a point the numbers showed that it wasn't the same anymore. Command, in particular, bombed hard. Assault was primarily praised for it's multiplayer despite a relatively good storyline and Adventures, despite being (in my opinion) an amazing take on Zelda-type adventure game was really really really bogged down by the hammy dialogue.

edited 27th May '12 12:00:21 AM by sirboulevard

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

1) I'm pretty sure many fans didn't enjoy story of FO 3 so I dunno what you are talking about

3) Not really

I don't think Star Fox being cheesy harms it in any way. I think shoot-em-ups are just not that popular these days, when people expect more gameplay depth or longer games.

There's also the Chozo and the Luminoth.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing more of them; exploring ancient ruins always seemed more Metroid-y to me than kicking ass and takin' names with the Feds.

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.

I never said anything about their story. You're twisting my words. I'm talking about the switch from isometric to first-person. Genre & story are different things.

Chozo founded the federation, so what was Chozo space is now federation space. And Prime 3 makes an off-hand remark about the federation having a presence on Aether now, but MP 2 does explicitly call the planet on the edge of federation space.

edited 27th May '12 9:42:26 AM by sirboulevard

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

^Umm, where comes info that Chozo created federation?....

The Manga. Basically it was part of their plan when their race got too old to reproduce and stopped being Proud Warrior Race Guys.

edited 27th May '12 5:10:16 PM by sirboulevard

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

...I don't recall the Chozo creating the Federation. I think the manga stated that the Chozo and the Feddies worked together on things (one such thing being Mother Brain) but not that the Chozo actually founded the Federation.

edited 27th May '12 5:11:47 PM by Otherarrow

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[1]◊ Remember that Manga is read Right to left.

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

How strange. Of course, this does seem rather bizzare, as the Chozo are ment to be this enigmatic race that only Samus (and Mother Brain I guess) has had any real contact with. Them being the founders of the Galactic Federation does kinda take away some of the mystery, as the Feddies presumably have records of the history and ways of their own founding race.

As does them working with the Feddies to make Mother Brain, but to a much lesser extant IMO, and I do accept that to justify the later, completely Feddie made Aurora Units.

...Is the manga canon? I forgot what the official word on that was.

edited 27th May '12 7:13:14 PM by Otherarrow

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It's canon, well, Broad Strokes Canon after Other M. It's actually referenced like twice in Other M and contradicted 3-4 other times.

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

@Otherarrow: Thats actually why I kind of don't like Chozo portrayal in Prime series, they are portrayed as The Precursors. Which doesn't make sense when you remember that they still existed when Samus was young

In Prime they explicitly mention raising Samus.

"What has she become, this Newborn? Clad in Chozo armor, wielding weapons our hands once held, does she dream of the Chozo as we once were? Does she long for her parents, lost to the same creatures that even now defile our sacred home? Does she still live?" - Chozo Lore: Hatchling's Shell

Assuming the Prime Chozo are the same as the Zebesian ones is also kind of a stereotype. Its like saying all Humans on Earth are like those from Germany.

And technically speaking, the main series treats them as precursors as well because there were only a few hundred Chozo left and they preferred to live out their days in solitude only coming out when shit met fan... and then Mother Brain revolted against them.

edited 27th May '12 11:27:05 PM by sirboulevard

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

Like I said, Chozo are treated in Prime like The Precursors without ancient part while still having ancient feeling

edited 28th May '12 2:43:13 AM by SpookyMask

... That's EXACTLY what they are! By the time of the series their actual culture is deep in decline, so technically the Chozo we meet are The Remnant of the precursors. It's actually a partial subversion of the trope. And don't say that's not how they were treated in the main series because it was. Zero Mission in particular was pretty big on them being precursors despite it only being abandoned within the last decade.

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

Prime and other Metroid game portrayal still does have differences even if they can be easily handwaved.

99.9% of the Chozo were DEAD by the time Samus was even born. And even then you're making the argument that they're the same culture. I interpret the differences like this: the Zebes Chozo and the Tallon IV Chozo were basically different cultures of the species. Think of them as the difference between a group of people from urban Canada and another group from rural China. Completely different cultures and beliefs.

And I think the difference of depiction between the two groups is good. Otherwise they become a Planet of Hats. Then you're stereotyping the whole race.

The NCR is like Tim Taylor. We need more POWER!!

Like I said, they can be easily handwaved And thats not the point. Point is that I can't consider Prime series to be part of Metroid. I'm not saying that they aren't canon, I'm saying they feel more like spin off series to me

The problem with the Star isn't the plots nor the tone, it is game play. Fans weren't asking for Zelda, they wanted more of Star Fox 64. Combine what no one asked for the unintuitive button mashing in combat and in minigames, the tact on space segments, anticlimax bosses, other frustrating game play changes and tricky's overall ability to annoy and it is a wonder people talk of plot at all. It was filled with holes but that's more a problem of trying to do more with what has always been a "military objective, do it!" series.

Assault's problem is lack of variety, short length and its insistence on making you replay single player mode even though all the good stuff is in multiplayer, and for marketing it as a single player game when it clearly should have been boasting about its multiplayer. Essentially, it made all the mistakes Metroid Prime Hunters did not, along with more focus on all range mode than fan darlings NES Star Fox and Star Fox 64. The plot was pretty decent outside of its attempts to be philosophical.

Command's issue was that it was a Star Fox game at all. Nintendo should have just released a turn based strategy game with real time combat and left all the Star Fox trappings behind, allowing it to become its own thing rather than forcing Star Fox into yet another thing its fans never asked for. For the plot, the only thing I could think of improving is setting Adventures and Command in the Star Fox setting and time frame but otherwise using completely unrelated characters in mostly unrelated events.

That's why a cross through could work here. It can even go into outright cross over with Samus up against Andross bioweapons on the surface while the Star Fox team has dogfights with Kriken upstarts out in space. Mix up the two antagonists somehow if Retro wants to go further, give them an Original Generation rogue even but otherwise keep them separate, let them keep their own tones and more importantly their own game play.

Keep Star Fox a level by level on rails shooter with some all range segments, keep Metroid's free roaming exploration and platforming, make sure they both have alternate pathways for replay value. The plot probably would be the hardest thing, but again, that mainly has more to do with Metroid's setting being much more advanced than Star Fox's but as long as it is consistent and not insulting or offensive, fans will forgive a plot if they like the game play.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

Adventures was a case of Executive Meddling. Rare wanted to make a Zelda-styled game for the N64. Miamyoto saw that the main character looked like Fox, and it gave everybody the idea that the game would do better as a Star Fox game. That, combined with Rare being bought by Microsoft resulted in what we ultimately got.

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