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Ambiguous Name: Vampire Detective Series get usage counts

 1 Cider, Thu, 17th May '12 11:07:05 AM from Not New York Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
The title of this trope was changed, for whatever reason and it is too specific for its own good. Tropes Are Flexible, after all, a vampire detective does not need to be in series about vampire detectives and too prove it, Hannibal King, the Ur Example, debuted in The Tomb of Dracula. He was a vampire, he was a detective, but it was not a vampire detective series. Blade once worked for King, so there was a vampire detective in the story, but the story wasn't just or even mainly about the detective, the same applies to the Midnight Sons or any other Marvel Book King drops in on.

Naturally the page is also littered with Wizards, Immortals and what not because, they're in plots that vaguely resemble the description. Isn't there a broader trope for them though? I mean we don't call it Friendly Neighborhood VampireSeries lest we get Venom the symbiote who is less murderous than the rest. This, like Fur Against Fang, is just another pointless rename that doesn't really bring much good. So we may not change that one back to Vampires Vs Werewolves even though that title made much more sense, fine, but we should just move this page back to Vampire Detective, no series.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Nine
"Vampire Detectives" makes more sense to me, too. Not all books or films are part of a series. I'm sure there are also supernatural-themed TV shows where there could be a vampire-detective as a one-off character, or as a background character who isn't the protagonist. "Works where there is a detective who is also a vampire (or a vampire who is also a detective)" is probably a better description.

Luc "Nickname" French
Speaking as the guy what did the YKKTW for it: The name has more to do with the fact that, originally, it was just a way of dealing with the fact that Forever Knight, Angel The Series, and Moonlight all existed, and all followed more or less the same template (and New Amsterdam fit into the template as well, barring the "sire drama" point).

So, yeah, I'm open to a rename to Vampire Detective, so long as it's clear that the result fills both the Vampire and Detective templates.

Thanks Luc "Yet To See A Werewolf Sidekick" French

 4 Cider, Sat, 19th May '12 6:36:45 PM from Not New York Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
Well a character can fit any number of detective tropes, great at solving other peoples problems but not at finding obvious solutions to his personal ones and any number of vampire ones is weakened or killed by sunlight at the same time, making the template, and still not be the protagonist of their own series or have a series that focuses on the coming of a Demon Mother than of their vampirism or detective work.(such as Marvel's midnight sons, again).

So my stance hasn't changed, that the title should change back to the way it was before.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Luc "Nickname" French
[up]

It's always been Vampire Detective Series. It's been under that name since it launched.

Thanks
Luc "Pointing out the obvious" French

 6 Cider, Sun, 20th May '12 8:00:48 AM from Not New York Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
Then that is a big blunder on my part. I could have sworn going to the page where there was no series on the top but maybe that has something to do with the change in use of alt titles? I'm still for renaming it though, as the examples are not strictly limited to series.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
someone
I don't recall this ever going under a different name either.

@Luc: Your signing reminds me of Greg Sepelak/M Sipher on the Allspark forum.

edited 20th May '12 8:09:13 AM by ThatHuman

something
Luc "Nickname" French
Going through the archives, it looks like it was YKTT Wed under Vampire Detective, but since all the initial examples were series, I launched it as Vampire Detective Series, (this was 2008, so I forgot anything but the fact that VDS was the original launched title (since it's been on my watchlist under that name since then)).

Thanks
Luc "Got the signing style from alt.folklore.urban, presumably where the other guy got it as well" French

edited 20th May '12 2:39:13 PM by Luc

Nine
So how do we go about the rename thing?

 10 ccoa, Mon, 23rd Jul '12 1:27:46 PM from the Sleeping Giant
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Clocking due to lack of activity.
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World's Toughest Milkman
How is this related to Occult Detective?

(Frankly, I think the name is overly specific, whatever we decide it means. If you hunt around, I bet you'll find ghost detectives and demon detectives. I know you'll find elf detectives, and probably somewhere out there, you'll find a zombie detective and a troll detective as well. What about robot detectives and Starfish Alien detectives?)

edited 23rd Jul '12 10:55:47 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Luc "Nickname" French
[up] It's very much a standard template, is the thing. It crossed over into Trope Of Its Own via there being so many examples.

As to Occult Detective: Several Vampire Detective Series wander in and out of that trope, as they are orthogonal; VDS is about the detective, OD is about the case matter.

Thanks
Luc "Not Much Else To Say" French

World's Toughest Milkman
[up]Is it really a "standard template"? Or is it just a coincidence of combining the popularity of vampires with the notion of the Fantastic Creature Detective?

eta: I really don't see how Vampire-as-detective is fundamentally different from other creatures as-detective. Being the most popular form does not make it a separate trope.

eta x2: I can also think of some instances of Werewolf-as-detective. To show that Vampire-as-detective is really a separate trope, you need to show how it differs from these other fantastical detectives in way that isn't just "these are vampire traits".

edited 24th Jul '12 1:19:49 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
I think the main reason is that vampires fit nicely into the noir archetype, as discussed on the page.
 
World's Toughest Milkman
So do werewolves or demons. In fact, Neil Gaiman's werewolf detective is a Hardboiled Detective based on the main character of the of classic film The Werewolf for pretty much that reason.

edited 24th Jul '12 3:38:55 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Nine
There's nothing (and no one) saying that other paranormal things cannot be detectives. It's also not a trope being discussed — it's an index because there seems to be an overabundance of works that are centered around vampires who are detectives. There's nothing stopping anyone from making a "werewolf detective" index (or a zombie detective, or ghost, or elf, or etc.) if there's enough to support it (frankly, if there was a collection of werewolf detectives in fiction, I would love it).

The only thing at issue here was the name and whether "series" should be dropped from the name of the index.

World's Toughest Milkman
Once something is brought to TRS, it's pretty much open season. We see this all the time: a trope is brought in because it's performing poorly, and might need a better name, and someone else points out that it's not really a trope, and it ends up getting cut.

I pointed out a problem. There are indeed, multiple ways the problem could be addressed, including making a broader parent index, but I suspect that the majority of examples probably are vampires, which makes a parent index dubious at best, and quite probably impossible. (Making separate indexes for each other type of creature is probably right out.) On the other hand, broadening this would allow us to collect some very similar works with ghosts and werewolves and demons and such, and have them all in one place. It's just a suggestion, but I think it's a good one, and I'm not hearing a lot of solid reasons against it. (Unless you can show enough examples of not-vampires to support the parent index idea, in which case, I'm fine with that.)

I'm neither a lumper nor a splitter. I like to judge things on a case-by-case basis to decide what a good size is, and this looks like one that would probably work better with some mild lumping. At least, it would probably be better for those few similar works that don't have any good index to go on at the moment, and probably never will if this isn't broadened. But I'm not insisting on it; merely recommending that we at least discuss the pros and cons.

edited 25th Jul '12 3:25:41 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Nine
Vampire Fiction and Vampire Detective Series are both pretty long pages already. It's easy enough to add Werewolf Detectives as a folder on the Werewolf Works page, or just to note it in a description next to the name. Same for Ghosts, Zombies, etc. Then if they get too long, it'd be time to consider splitting them. Right now though I don't see a reason or a need to make either vampire page bigger than it already is, considering there's still a ton of vampire fiction (and vampire detectives) out there that hasn't made it to the index.

World's Toughest Milkman
Vampire Fiction, yeah. I'd never argue that we need to do anything with that. That's already plenty broad. Vampire Detective Series is what I'm arguing should be broadened. It's not big. I just launched a brand spanking new trope with more examples than it has!
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
 20 Clarste, Fri, 27th Jul '12 12:51:42 AM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
I agree that there's nothing special about vampire detectives compared to other kinds of supernatural detectives. Really, the whole thing is a just an overlap between Urban Fantasy and the general popularity of detective stories. A notable overlap, to be sure, but the vampires themselves aren't the important bit.

edited 27th Jul '12 12:52:00 AM by Clarste

 21 ccoa, Thu, 20th Sep '12 9:23:39 AM from the Sleeping Giant
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Total posts: 21
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