Prostitution As A Healthy, Wholesome Occupation

At least, insofar as, say, being a lawyer is a healthy, wholesome occupation.

Someone here said:

I disagree. A prostitute has (or at least should have) the ability to screen his or her clients clients according to his or her own taste, treat them differently depending on the degree of familiarity and mutual respect, etc. Just like a publican in a pub may or may not serve you and may or may not serve you better depending on how you behave, whether you're a regular, whether they appreciate you, etc.

A very interesting business model, achieved by a famous courtesan and intellectual in Versailles, was to have both payers and favorites. That woman would entertain a salon where men would be allowed to compete for her attention. Among these, she would chose whomever she pleased to be her favourite, and she would give herself to him for a given time, a night, a week, a few months... for no money. The payers, on the other hand, would have a contractual right to her, depending on the terms of the contract. Thus, the payers enjoyed privileged and certain access, while everyone else had to compete for her favour, and might never get to have her. You wouldn't believe how efficient that system was. Oh, and as a bonus side effect, lots of absolutely brilliant intellectual production and exchange took place in that very salon.

That woman was called Ninon de L'Enclos. She wasn't the only person to work at that level, but she definitely was one of the most proficient and successful.

It is my belief that prostitution could be an entirely healthy, socially useful, and personally fulfilling set of professions. All that is needed for this to work, is that the host society acquires the proper cognitive and decisional memes, the proper perspective and proper manners. The Dutch appear to have failed at this, despite legalizing it, at least for the moment: they didn't equip themselves to handle the onslaught of Eastern European pimps and their methods and attitudes that are imbued with extreme sexism and near-slavery, which is largely how low-level, cheap prostitution is handled nowdays.

Admittedly, that's true for low-level, cheap labour all over the world, but we've succeeded in getting rid of that, mostly, in First World countries, except for cheap illegal migrant labour... which is basically what prostitution rings do. But we're more successful about fighting the former than the latter because, even when prostitution is legal, the taboo around it means people who want to preserve their reputation just won't touch the topic with a ten-foot pole. And thus, criminal negligence occurs. Thus, the girls believe they are Defiled Forever, that no-one will ever want them for anything else. That's the difference between them, and someone working at a sweatshop.

Discussion topic: is what I'm suggesting even a good idea? Is it worth the effort of implementing it?

edited 16th May '12 5:38:14 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I'm going to say that this is a terrible idea; and institutionalizing this practice is most likely going to backfire within a few generations.

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Why would it take so long? It took only a couple of decades for Holland to fail. Nowadays, when something crashes, it crashes hard and fast.

Anyway, please elaborate. In what ways is it terrible, why is it so, how do you expect it to crash, why do you think the crash cannot be averted even after having anticipated it and its causes.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

It could be that the Moral Guardians would simply self-destruct with the force of nuclear explosions.

A few generations later, the final groups of irradiated humanity dies out.

Between natural growth from legitimizing the practice, and extreme costs of properly regulating it, countries that legalize prostitution tend to see the black market balloon utterly out of control and undercut legal avenues so badly as to eclipse them many times over. In some parts of Australia, black market prostitution outnumbers legal brothels something like 10:1.

So no, probably not worth it.

I don't think it's economically possible to choose your customers and your prices; in a competitive, capitalist economy, you're not going to make a living that way.

edited 16th May '12 11:20:17 AM by ATC

If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton books

I think this mistakes the mistake of assuming that prostitution is voluntary 100% - or even greater than 50% - of the time. The truth is prostitution in the United States, and most other first world countries, is human trafficking. It's boys and girls, of all ages, being forced into it at gunpoint or through addiction to drugs that a pimp provides or in order to survive on the street or to procure one's own drugs. There are places, in the US even, where prostitution is legal and safely practiced, but those are few and far between. Also, there's the difficulty in determining what prostitution is voluntary in the conventional sense, and what prostitution is turned to due to economic and social conditions.

It's already legal in Nevada in several cities. Ironically not Las Vegas. (This has to do with its population exceeding the size limit for the population for voting on it.)

I'm pretty sure that screening goes on there, to make sure that they don't get anyone who's obviously psychotic messing with the girls. That's the kind of screening I'd think a prostitute would want; making sure they aren't dealing with obvious or not so obvious threats to themselves. Which is probably why a brothel is safer than the street; there's help down the hallway or whatever if the guy suddenly turns violent. Screening isn't about turning away every customer you don't like, it's about weeding out threats to your life. Which is pretty goddamned important.

Mostly women in poverty who were usually abused as children. They are subjected to great risk of violence and disease. Almost all women say they would like to get out of prostitution. I don't think this should be legitimized.

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.

I think the idea of legalizing (not legitimizing as that's a moral position on something I think) the profession has to do with the fact that once it's legal the women involved will then have more legal recourse to take when something bad goes down. They could unionize, even. Get the federally or state declared minimum wage at the very least for their time, and health insurance. Bringing it to the level of a legal occupation means that suddenly there's standards that have to be met.

Granted, I don't think the social adjustment would be quick or easy, but the above is part of the reasoning behind legalizing it. (That and a lot of people don't think non violent vice should be criminalized so harshly and include the legalization of prostitution in with things like legalizing marijuana. There is a basic logic to it.)

Of note is Sweden's policy of criminalizing the purchase of sex, but not selling it — in effect giving prostitutes a free out without risk of legal retribution for stepping forward.

The industry promptly shrank. Within three years it was about half the size with few new recruits, and in a decade was about 1/5 of what it was.

and If prostitution becomes a legal business, fewer person will be stuck in it, and it will be less dangerous for them. The Swedish model is not a bad way of approaching the problem.

As for the kind of prostitution that is a bad job that most people want to get out of, it would be like being a burger flipper, answering at a call center, and such services with low pay and a very entitled and disrespectful clientèle.

Why would there be so much black market prostitution, if not for bad habits of thought and action in the populace? Do you see much black market for other legal commodities, in a developed country, nowadays?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I don't think you can compare prostitution to those. With burger flipping you're selling food. With prostitution you're selling your body and the use of its orifices and genitals. Hardly the same thing.

edited 16th May '12 12:18:56 PM by 0dd1

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Again, I think there's a bit of misunderstanding or otherwise not understanding the way prostitution actually works. The idea is that legalizing it will make it safe for the workers and safe for the clients - except the exact opposite usually ensues. True, the legalized brothels are safe but the black market industry is rarely effective in a positive way for society.

More often we see it becomes worse for all parties involved. Nowhere that legalizes prostitution has ever seen the criminal market give up or shrink to the margins. That's because prostitution in criminal circles is often times not voluntary and skirts around whatever regulations are in place - and is often tied to other crimes such as drug use, gang crime, etc.

Besides, legalizing it creates another level of law enforcement on top of the original level: someone has to enforce the regulations on the brothels, and someone still has to crack down on the illegal, unregulated practice. This means that we can either see an increase in the cost of law enforcement and reduced policing on both thus defeating the purpose of regulating it, or a large increase in the cost and more police to police both, thus defeating one of the principle concepts behind legalizing it (to eliminate the cost of cleaning the streets of illegal prostitution).

EDIT: Well, there's guns, alcohol and tobacco. Hence, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

edited 16th May '12 12:23:15 PM by Shepherd

...yes. Yes, I do, and I don't see how you don't. Everything from movies to toys to food to electronics to unlicensed people providing services that you need a license to do. That is still very common in developed nations.

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In short: it gets legalised. And, then nobody wants to start putting the infrastructure in place to regulate it properly, as they don't want to touch the topic with a ten-foot pole.

And, therein lies the problem. While civil servants and legislators are hemming, haing and going beet red with the thought of putting measures in place... the black market swoops in and makes the topic even harder to approach properly.

So: legalise it... but really, really think about the structures you need in place, first. And, take notes from all the countries that have done so to work out what structures are needed. It's not rocket science. And, going all moral guardian and righteous... is not helping the woman who either feel compelled, are compelled or just want to work in the industry from doing so safely. If you can't get rid of it (and, you just can't), at least make it safer for all those involved in it. Including the punters.

Get rid of the stigma (and, make it harder for black marketeers to exploit the vunerable — and I include the punters, again, here) and you might actually improve the cultural value.

edited 16th May '12 12:47:10 PM by Euodiachloris

You may wanna fix yer arrows there.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

It isn't in mine. Maybe I don't know where to find them, but practically everything around me is legal, licensed, and taxpaying, including all the products you mentioned. I don't think I've ever met an unlicensed worker in my life. Even flea markets give you a recipe and a guarantee, and will keep their word on it. The only exception is digital media, but I wouldn't call P 2 P a market. Heck, even the whoreclubs (of which there's many in my neighborhood) are well-known.

Pimps (and other organized criminals) are tolerated by the police because it is understood that there is a demand that they supply, and simply taking a group of pimps down will only mean new worse pimps will show up. Make their business legal, and the police can go all-out.

edited 16th May '12 12:48:41 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Meh: you ninja, you.

edited 16th May '12 12:48:33 PM by Euodiachloris

Comparing it to alcohol, tobacco, and firearms is kind of an error. Those substances/objects are easy enough to produce en masse that QA is a much simpler and cheaper endeavor and it's still possible to feasibly compete with the black market (which, yes, does still exist for those things). Regulated prostitution involves very regular, very rigorous, and very, very expensive medical checks on every single employee as well as entire social services bureaus to try to weed out deeply-entrenched foul play from employers.

edited 16th May '12 12:55:20 PM by Pykrete

Well, porn movies are regulated, complete with the expensive and constant medical checking (because condoms look bad on screen). And a prostitute should be able to screen her clients the same way a porn actress can choose her movies, and vice versa: everyone's experience will be improved.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Now, if you could ring-fence the taxes from prostitution and plough them back into the health-care, policing and social services required, wouldn't that be grand? And, plan ahead for that.

It's a base to work from, certainly.

edited 16th May '12 1:01:58 PM by Euodiachloris

Ring-fence? Well, at least I've discovered an interesting site and cocept... but what does tax evasion have to do with redirecting the income of taxes from one activity into funding the expenses of another?

edited 16th May '12 1:17:51 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I'm really curious as to what country you live in that sees no black market demand for goods. As has been said, there's a black market for a multitude of legal products, from watches to movies to guns.

And Pykrete touched upon the types of extensive regulations required for such a business, and the cost of enforcing that plus the cost of enforcing standing laws against illegal prostitution (because I get a foul taste in my mouth if we start to talk about paying the police to not fight crime) will be substantial on an already taxed and stretched system of justice.

If it were merely a question of allowing willing women to perform, that's an easy solution. But the reality of it is much different.

EDIT: a quick google search on the Dutch system of legalized prostitution reveals that even there human trafficking and women being forced into the trade isn't an uncommon sight.

edited 16th May '12 1:24:41 PM by Shepherd

Well if prostitution is legal, I still think pimps should be illegal.

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.