Manga: Okane Ga Nai (Now P5 Only)

"how it compares in explicit sexual content compared to other BL work."

I'm hoping someone else who's read it will come in and offer opinions so it's not just me responding, but it's about the current average for a josei-targeted BL manga. It was a bit more smutty than average back in its day (I think the manga started serialization in 2000), but censorship standards have relaxed a bit since (or at least they did, up until the whole Bill 156 thing) and magazines are willing to show a bit more. It would be about typical for the kind of BL that gets an M-rating on the US market.

I went to look this over out of curiosity and ended up reading the whole thing. (My homework is weeping.) My impressions:

To me, Ayase (the tiny guy) looks more feminine than underage. Also, as was pointed out earlier, when Kanou and Ayase first meet, Ayase doesn't look much younger than he does in the main part of the story (where he's 18). Additionally, he's living on his own when they first meet, which means that he was, at youngest, 10th grade (age 15). And nothing sexual happened at that point; Ayase treated Kanou kindly and that sparked Kanou's obsession with him. I do not think there's any pedo-pandering happening here.

On the sexual content: Was it there? Definitely. Was it explicit? Fairly. Genitals are more often hinted at than actually drawn, but it's quite clear what's going on, and there are some close-ups and the like. Was it frequent? Relatively, but there's more non-sex parts than sex parts. Was it the only draw of the work? Absolutely not. I ended up reading the whole thing because of the plot. I skimmed over most of the sex scenes. I would not consider this porn. Explicitly adult, yes, but not porn.

On the rape: First, let me say that I thought that the P5 was not judging the merits of a work, merely whether it was porn/pedo-pandering or not, thus how rape is presented wouldn't impact the decision. That said, the rape aspect has come up as a point of discussion in this thread, so I'll address it.

The rape is portrayed in an interesting (for lack of a better word) light. On the one hand, Kanou (big guy) is well aware that it is not something he should be doing, and definitely feels guilt over what he's doing (when he hasn't managed to rationalize it to the back of his mind). It's implied that Kanou has a lot of issues, and the way he's approaching the relationship with Ayase is seen as proof of that. Ayase is also shown to struggle with having been raped. It's acknowledged that the relationship between the two is messed up, and that the rape has a lot to do with that. So in that way, the rape is not portrayed as positive.

On the other hand, Ayase is shown to be falling for Kanou, although that's portrayed as being more in spite of the rapes than anything else. Ayase also doesn't struggle with the aftermath of the rapes in anywhere approaching a realistic fashion, which allows them to seem a bit less serious than real rape. Also, the rapes themselves are shown in a way that's clearly intended to be titillating (they're the explicit content mentioned above). So, in that fashion, rape is... condoned, in a way.

So my conclusion on the rape issue is that it's not really shown in a positive light, and it's definitely not Played for Laughs (like the work page erroneously states), but at the same time, it does downplay the seriousness of rape.

TL;DR: If it was me, I wouldn't cut it. I don't think it falls under either pure porn or pedo-pandering.

edited 30th Apr '12 12:59:13 PM by Nocturna

What they said.

My points:

• Not pedoshit.
  • The whole falls-in-love-with-underage-guy thing is done very discreetly. As said, the protagonists met while Ayase was in school and Kanô was already an adult. Ayase handed Kanô his umbrella and smiled at him, nothing more ever happened.
  • As for Kanô's feelings, as far as I remember, it was mostly like "I always remembered his kindness after that", and definitely never "I was sexually interested in him since that". That's about as innocent as it gets, losing only to mutual childhood friends romance.
  • Furthermore, Ayase may be extremely uke, but his shape retains angularity, slenderness (as opposed to childish pudginess) and long-limbedness that don't read as kiddie. Effeminate maybe. His body is believable (if uncommon) for a 18-year-old boy.

• Not porn.
  • The work has a legitimate, solid plot.
  • It has explicit sex scenes. They're somewhat censored in stylish ways, so it's not as obscene as it could be. But no, you won't be mistaken about what's happening and what goes where.
  • The sex scenes do not overpower other content.
  • The plot would work just fine were the sex scenes never shown.
  • That being said, the plot does to some extent depend on rape and sexual encounters. However it deals with the rape and sexual use/abuse pretty realistically, without glorifying, and plays them for serious drama.

Bottom line: wouldn't cut.

edited 30th Apr '12 1:32:34 PM by peccantis

Okay, I just have one question: Are the sex scenes once per chapter (or more)?

IIRC (I read through it rather fast and have a tendency to ignore chapter breaks, especially in manga), no more than once per chapter, and sometimes less.

edited 30th Apr '12 4:05:01 PM by Nocturna

Um, I'm kinda new here, though I've been lurking.

The page has a decidedly NSFW picture, and it clearly says, in the T Vtropes page:

"It should be noted that this series is very graphic in its depictions of sex and violence. Both are played for laughs as well as angst, particularly the sex." Rape played for laughs is fucking disturbing.

Lolicon has also been listed as a trope, which means it comes up in the material at some point. Also, underage looking protagonist.

I don't see how this is acceptable on the wiki given the new guidelines. Porn, softcore or no, isn't exactly family friendly.

edited 1st May '12 8:23:07 AM by Pleaides

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but Lolicon in the trope page is not proof of the work being paedo-pandering. Because a) many editors misuse it or use it frivolously and b) the fact that it contains a paedophile doesn't mean the work plays it as a good thing, especially when we have no context to work on.

I don't see how the image is NSFW when there are Britney Spears video clips with her naked in the bathtub. Which is what's happening in this image.

Umm, Black Comedy Rape is quite common in mainstream media, so I don't think we should cut a manga out for that.

Also, I can concur with the sentiment that the protagonist merely has a girlish looking face. He has too many muscles even in the picture◊ used for Off-Model.

If the lolicon is shown to be depraved and there's no actual loli sex, I see no problem with the work as a whole.

edited 1st May '12 8:34:06 AM by encrypted12345

If someone watches Britney Spears videos during work, then I think we have a problem here.

It looks fairly skeevy to me. Provide context please, about paedophilia being treated as negative by the work. Even so, it's pretty much rape porn even if it isn't paedophiliac porn, let's face it. Imo, should be cut.

Edit: Uhh D:

That protagonist is half the size of the other guy. And looks like a very girly kid no less. I thought that "older than they look" was also verboten, or did I misinterpret something?

NSFW does imply, literal or no, that you could read/watch it during work without getting fired, methinks. If something can screw you over at work, then it's NSFW, so taking it literally is hardly an issue here unless we debate semantics. If, as an employer/colleague, I saw that picture... yeah no.

Also, I don't have proof, I admit. However, I suppose that the two of you are more familiar with the work at hand, which is why I'm asking for proof. I'd rather not read through X pages of blatant rape porn in search of a paedophile, thank you. It's more a matter of convenience. Sorry to bother you.

edited 1st May '12 8:46:58 AM by Pleaides

NSFW is not literal. Don't treat it as such. Most Britney Spears videos are fine by our standards.

It is hypocritical to demand context when you are solely working on the trope page, lacking context yourself. Stop it.

The page only says that Mizoguchi is a lolicon. How, why, how is it treated, we get none of that. Do you have proof it's treated as a good thing?

Rape as Comedy occurs in works like South Park. I'm sorry, but as disturbing as it is, it's not grounds for cutting.

edited 1st May '12 8:44:32 AM by lu127

The sex scenes are less than once per chapter; on-screen sex usually around twice a volume, plus some making out and some off-screen sex and a few Imagine Spots per volume.

The "lolicon" character is a bit-parter played for comedy relief and mainly tries to get tiny guy to cross-dress, plus some squee-ing over how cute he must have been as a kid. The other characters call him a "pervert" and tell him not to share his fantasies. He never does anything physical to anybody.

Oh, that's not bad at all. People are always trying to get other folks to crossdress/etc in manga.

On what grounds do you call the work rape porn? Yes, it has rape, yes, it has smut, based on those things you should also call Earths Children rape porn.

This sounds like more pedo porn. Kill it.

I thought the kid is 18 at the time of those sex scenes?

It looks like a little kid from the page image. And in a bathtub with an older man, no less. I think it's clear what kind of people this series is trying to attract.

He looks like a teen to me, but I guess it's subjective. Objectively, we know he's 18.

We're operating under the "Really 700 years old" rule though.

Yeah that's a teenager probably over 16. And it's quite obvious who this series is trying to attract.

Well he doesn't look like a child to me, or apparently to the council members that have looked at it.

edited 2nd May '12 12:44:29 PM by RhymeBeat

Look let's not go into the whole pedo/ehphebowhatever debate again. The point is, the character is drawn to look like someone who is underage. It doesn't matter what the stated age is, because that doesn't mean anything. It's the art that people come for, not the words.

No, the character is not drawn to look under age. The character is meant to be 18 and is drawn to look that way. He's just short and kind of effeminate which against the other male lead who is both very very tall, and almost hyper masculine is giving you that impression. Against the rest of the cast, he's obviously an adult.

edited 2nd May '12 12:48:51 PM by shimaspawn

He looks like a girl, not a child. Children in manga look different.

"No, the character is not drawn to look under age."

I've looked at 3 different pictures posted in this thread and I disagree. Add the rape on top of that and we can safely say this is a work that does not need a page here on this site.

Except there are several people who disagree with your view, and you don't get a vote anyway.

Saying "Nuke it" is not helpful to 5P.

Children are generally drawn with larger eyes and much shorter. This guy doesn't look like a child at all.