Game Of Thrones -- Book Spoiler Free Thread

A Bolton attack on the Lord Commander might actually be the best thing for them.

As Roose said, it would unite the North. And with the Boltons ousted, then their soldiers might be forced to take the black. And even if they're not, it would make the other northern houses that much more sympathetic to the watch.

And if Ramsey is, as foreshadowed this episode, expecting just a force of a few dozen sworn brothers and gets blindsided by the Wildlings, this could work out very well for him.

Ramsay takes away their whole dilemma if he makes his threat to attack Castle Black public. It's not interfering in the politics of the realm to attack someone who's made it clear he intends to declare war on the Watch itself. And given he killed off Roose in the same episode he said "absolutely do not do that thing", it looks pretty likely he will.

So, late to the party, but watched the episode I have.

Roose died like a bloody idiot. After threatening his psychotic son numerous times with the prospect of another heir, he thinks it's just fine to be in his son's stabbing range once the threat becomes real. See, that's why Ramsay is such a Sue. It's not that he is an unrealistic genius, it's that everyone around him suddenly acts dumb when it benefits him, which lets his dumb decisions escape all consequences.

I bet his horrific(no, seriously, horrific - that scene was nasty excessive grimdark) murder of Walda Frey and her baby will also lack any consequences, because when has Walder Frey ever been upset at denial of politically beneficial marriages, am I right?

Everything else is decent. I liked the Frankengreg just smacking that stand-up comedian to a wall. I'll call him Ser Smack from now on, it's so matter-of-fact it's simultaneously awesome and hilarious.

Tommen asking Cersei to make him strong... ominous. Very ominous.

High Sparrow, fuck you. Die already, you obnoxious prick.

Brienne recounting her encounter with Arya to Sansa was a nice bonding moment. I dunno why the hell Theon has decided to go to the Iron Islands, though. I guess he wants to get drowned or something.

Oh, speaking of drowned - the King of Four Scenes finally bites the saltwater. Sadly, like Daario, Euron doesn't look bizarre enough for my taste. Where's the eyepatch, HBO?

I hope Jon will keep the stab wounds. They'd look like Kenshiro scars.

edited 4th May '16 2:04:22 PM by Luminosity

Right now Tyrion and Ramsay are black hole characters that weakens every character in their orbit whilst remaining on opposing sides of the spectrum.

Excellent point about Walder. Forgot about him.

Yeah, he's likely to be pissed but... what can he do? Sure, his army is apparently large enough to be a deciding factor in the War of Five Kings but I don't see him mobilizing it just because a daughter died.

Or hell, maybe he'll mobilize it to help Ramsay since apparently she was "poisoned by our enemies. And in an unrelated note, eaten by dogs." That would... kind of be the (il)logical progression of Ramsey generating idiot balls in the hands of everyone around him.

I disagree about Tyrion right now. He's the only thing keeping my interest in Mereen. Dany sucks my interest from it to a ridiculous degree, so I'm happy to replace her with Tyrion. And outside Jorah (banished), Selmy (Who died without ever actually doing anything), and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe recast Daario, I don't find anyone in her inner circle interesting either.

edited 4th May '16 1:55:10 PM by Larkmarn

You kidding? This is the dude that made himself a pariah in Westeros to get back at Robb for breaking his oath to marry his daughter.

@Larkman I was thinking more on how Tyrion makes Varys a lot less interesting. He's been downgraded to Tyrion's stooge.

This is also the dude that was all "eh, kill my wife. I can get another." And the thing is that he was basically presented with the perfect means to enact his revenge. The Starks came to him, offered him their neck, the Boltons offered the sword, and the Lannisters offered him money to swing it. That's wildly different from proactively waging a war.

Okay, that I can get behind. But Varys in Mereen is still leagues more interesting than anyone else there.

edited 4th May '16 2:02:20 PM by Larkmarn

@Lark A new wife that you haven't known very long and don't love is leagues away from a daugher you raised though.

Well there are only 4 actual characters in Meereen right now. Tyrion, Grey Worm, Missandei and Varys.

edited 4th May '16 2:06:32 PM by MadSkillz

I have no problem believing that Frey considers all his children basically expendable. If he did do anything about it, it would be because he considered it a personal insult, and not for any love for Walda or the loss of his grandson.

edited 4th May '16 2:11:04 PM by LSBK

He doesn't care about his daughters. He made that pretty clear when he was brokering the deal to have Robb marry one. They're basically interchangeable in his eyes.

Now, might he be pissed about losing out on the power the marriage brought him? Maybe. He did pay Roose for that. But there's two things: First, he has to not believe Ramsay's cover story. Which we have no idea if he will or not. And second, unlike with the Starks, he doesn't have the opportunity to exact some sweet vengeance. Waging war on the Lord of the North is... well, to call it risky is an understatement. And Walder is not a fan of risks.

What's Ramsay's cover story?

He had her fed to the dogs and he wasn't subtle about it.

Does he actually have to tell them that? He could just say he gave her a proper burial along with his father. Unless sending people back to their native lands for burial is a thing. Which it might be, I don't know.

Frey is a dick, but not stupid enough to believe that Roose and Walda died of natural causes at the very same time. It would require an accident, which is unlikely since Walda was heavily pregnant and thus did not move much from her room.

Tyrion or LF could be smart enough to cook a believable enough story, but not Ramsay.

Walder doesn't care about anyone but himself and how they can help advance him. Robb denying his daughter, like Ramsay killing his other daughter, actively hurts the advancement of house Frey. Walder would probably be angry.

Walder Frey, as capricious as he is, knows marching North with winter practically here and with a pissed off Blackfish Tully holding Riverrun is a moronic idea. This is "the Late" Walder Frey after all, patience is his greatest asset.

That's why he waited until Robert's Rebellion had its fate sealed to swear loyalty, and that's why when Robb refused him, instead of just trying to kill him or somesuch he bid his time and carefully orchestrated a regicide.

Frey isn't stupid. He just saw what happened to Stannis when he marched against Winterfell, and Stannis was a much more skilled battle commander than he is (and he's probably aware). And plus, going on a punditive expedition to the North would leave The Twins unguarded, which is unwise with Blackfish walking about right next to them.

He could just let LF pass with the Valemen and ensure that they meet the Boltons in the best possible conditions. Or negotiate some of the loot, like the Dreadfort. After all, LF probably expects to be the North's only savior, he might act magnanimous.

Would be funny if the Freys join Sansa in fighting Ramsay.

But I should re-correct myself. Walder cares about House Frey and so going by that he should want to hurt Ramsay for killing his daughter.

Sending someone else (like Littlefinger or a Lannister host) to deal with the North would probably be the Frey way to act. Supporting Sansa would be a really dumb idea. The entire Realm knows you systematically murdered her brother, mother and unborn nephew in cold blood, and you want that single person on this Earth with more reason to put your head on a spike in charge?

Hell, if we operate on my dream scenario/the best case scenario (Sansa reclaims Winterfell, beheads Ramsay with Oathkeeper, sends a letter to Cersei saying Winter is coming for them, e.t.c), the literal next course of action would be march South and annihilate everything Walder Frey ever loved.

edited 4th May '16 7:29:06 PM by Gaon

Oh I know it'd be stupid.

It's just a hilarious thought to me.

The North doesn't really have the manpower to take out the Riverlands and the Iron Throne especially after a northern civil war.

edited 4th May '16 7:35:53 PM by MadSkillz

But Walder Frey never loved anyone else!

I wish the Freys had been expanded on more.

It's no fun to hate on an old man that's going to die soon anyways.

@wander Well I meant Frey characters

I don't think we have names for any of the other Freys

Again you guys are giving the show credit for thinking that Ramsay will deal with Walder Frey being upset about Walda dying. That kind of Worldbuilding and consequences is not their concern post-S5, if that was their concern then the idiocy of LF engaging Sansa to Ramsay would never have happened.