Rename (alt titles crowner 6/19): Badass Spaniard

Deadlock Clock: 16th Jun 2012 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [182]
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1 Shaoken2nd Apr 2012 11:42:27 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
Looking at the trope description there appears to be a misuse between what the trope is about and how it's used. As written, it's for Badass characters who are from Spain, or who identify themselves with it (since Spaniard refers exclusively to people from Spain).

However there are a lot of Latino actors and characters being listed as a Badass Spaniard, both on that page and others, even though the oly thing connecting them to Spain is that they share a language, and they don't associate themselves with the country (the worst case is that Machete is listed on the trope page, where the entire point of the movie is that he's a Mexican character). It seems that some tropers are confusing "Spaniard" with "speaks Spanish as a first language."

edited 3rd Apr '12 12:50:18 AM by Shaoken

So rename to Badass Latino. Easy fix.
Latino has a different connotation to it than Spaniard though. Isn't Badass Spaniard supposed to be a kind of stock badass type that's more of a swashbuckler?
By the way, the original post is misrepresenting the defintion of the trope. Latin American are explicitly included.

  • The Badass Spaniard's claim to Spain need not be direct: Hispanic, Latin-American or even Latin descent is acceptable within this Trope. The important thing is that he has a killer accent and a killer instinct... Cuba is usually a good exotic choice, as to an American, Cuban and Spanish accents sound similar.''

However the whole section about Mexico not being included is problematic, in that is it misleading about the trope, about real life, and is full if parenthetical natter.

  • But he's NEVER from Mexico, since mexicans doesn't identify with the spanish culture (regardless of the De Facto language of the country) as most of their historical badassery comes from battling their way out of the Spanish rule, a Mexican is as much of a badass spaniard as an American is a badass englishman, unless he's of white Spanish descent (And even then most white mexicans does not care much for their european roots), like Zorro or Ricardo Montalban (his parents upper-class Castillians).

edited 3rd Apr '12 7:08:22 AM by Catbert

5 Shaoken3rd Apr 2012 05:34:08 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
[up]Latin America is included, but that whole section is just problematic; as the second paragraph said you wouldn't call a badass from America a Badass Englishman, and like America Mexico has a history of throwing off Spanish rule. Hence calling a Mexican a Spaniard just makes zero sense.

And in the real world, Spaniard refers exclusively to someone from Spain or with Spanish citizenship, whereas their descendents in Latin America are called Criollo if Wikipedia is to be believed. So it doesn't matter if the trope says it can include Latin American characters as Spaniards, it is still wrong (just like if the Evil Brit trope said the character didn't have to be British and could be from one of the former colonies that would still be wrong, since Brit refers to someone from Britian, just like Aussie is exclusively for Australians, Kiwi is exclusively for New Zealanders etc.).

Furthermore the discription in the trope is almost-exclusively about the Spanish; the page quotes are exclusive to Spain, the description has the character using a Spanish weapon and fighting like a Spanishman would, and speaking Spanish. It's invoking a lot of Spanish imagery, but trying to shoehorn in Latin Americans leading to the idea that anyone who speaks Spanish as a first language is a Spaniard.

What we really have here is two different tropes; Badass Spaniard, which is invoking Spanish Imagery, and Badass Latino, for Spanish-speaking people who are better associated with their country of orgin then the country that colonised them.
Honestly though, the trope read like Zorro Clone, and Zorro need not be a pure-blood Spaniard. Antonio Banderes's Zorro was a Mexican peasant orphan, but still very much fits the trope.
7 lebrel3rd Apr 2012 05:38:14 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] Zorro Clone sounds like a good name, or at least a good redirect.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Just did some digging into the trope's past. Looks like the original intent was more of Inigo Montoya clone, though Zorro was also included.

Oh, and -5 points for misusing Badass Normal. Boo, hiss hiss for bad trope writing. And all the stuff about "No Mexicans" sounds like it was added after the fact by a Mexican nationalist intent on disassociating himself from Spain.

Maybe Badass Hispanic? Hispanic Swashbuckler? Swashbuckling Hispanic? Every Antonio Banderas Character Ever? (just kidding about that one)

From October 6, 2008

He is the Badass Normal. Nothing can stop him from his goal. He charges in yelling the Battle Cry of "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

The Badass Spaniard is any Badass Normal, or Badass Longcoat who has the 5-point advantage of being Spanish. Not only does he speak Spanish but his accent makes him even more badass.

  • The Ultimate Example: Inigo Montoya From The Princess Bride.
  • Luis Sera from Resident Evil 4. Pulls Leon's ass out of the fire several times during the game.
  • Ramírez from Highlander (who is really an ancient Egyptian, being played by Sean Connery, but never mind).
  • Technically a Mexican but still very badass: the titular character of Robert Rodriguez' El Mariachi Trilogy.
  • While we're with Mexicans, One word: Zorro.
  • Chilean, but still badass: any character played by Marko Zaror.
  • This might be why Metaknight was given an over the top Spanish accent in 4 kids Kirby dub. Or it might just be to make him a Zorro parody. Or it might be that 4 kids are idiots

edited 3rd Apr '12 5:49:28 PM by Catbert

9 lebrel3rd Apr 2012 05:52:23 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
Swashbuckling Hispanic, since it is about a specific kind of badassery.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
10 Shaoken3rd Apr 2012 06:21:26 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
With Zorro, although some interpretations have him as being born in Mexico (and if I recall correctly from that movie, Antonio wasn't the original Zorro, who was a Spaniard), it's still set in the Spanish Colonial era, so that would fit under them identifying theselves with the country.

It looks like it might have been Zorro Clone (or Inigo Montoya), but that would make it oddly specific, we already have a page on Zorro and the characters he influenced, and most of the examples currently on the page aren't a lot like Zorro or Inigo besides the fact they speak Spanish as a first language.

Swashbuckling Hispanic could work, since it's a lot more self-explanatory as to who qualfies, and it's not just a rehash of Badass Normal.
Even in versions of Zorro where he is a pure-blooded Spanish noble, he still tends to fight on behalf of Californians (read Mexicans) against oppressive/corrupt Spanish colonial leaders.

And of course, Antonio Banderes's Zorro is very much Mexican, even though the actor is from Spain.
12 Shaoken3rd Apr 2012 06:44:23 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
[up]Right, but it's still at a peroid in time where most of the colonists would still consider themselves Spanish, in the same way that the American Colonists leading up to the revolution still considered themselves British.
13 shimaspawn4th Apr 2012 08:07:14 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
It's not always a swashbuckler though. You see the same character type in El Mariachi and Once Upon a Time in Mexico even though everyone uses guns. It's not the weapon so much as the attitude of the fighter.

The character is romantic, dashing, Hispanic, bad ass, has a code of sorts though it's not always good or evil. It's not about the weapon. It's about the character archetype which shows up on numerous works.

edited 4th Apr '12 8:10:32 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
[up]In general, I'd say your right, although I think it is worth mentioning that in settings with swords, the character tends to be a swashbuckler.

What would you suggest we call it?
15 Deboss4th Apr 2012 11:04:41 AM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Shouldn't we use Hispanic rather than Spaniard then?
"Swashbuckler" does not imply swordsmanship. You can swashbuckle with guns.

swashbuckler (ˈswɒʃˌbʌklə)

  1. a swaggering or flamboyant adventurer
  2. a film, book, play, etc, depicting excitement and adventure, esp in a historical setting

edited 4th Apr '12 11:08:30 AM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
17 shimaspawn4th Apr 2012 11:16:25 AM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
But I wouldn't call the characters in El Mariachi or Once Upon a Time in Mexico swashbucklers. I would call them this trope though. The word has connotations of period pieces and I think using it would make people exclude a lot of good examples.

The dictionary tells you what a word's definition is. It doesn't tell you the connotations or how it's used in the wild. Dictionary definitions are very short and tend to miss out on a lot of things. If you look at the Wikipedia Swashbuckler page, that page is entirely about swordsmen, no matter what the very abridged dictionary entry says.

edited 4th Apr '12 11:18:08 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
18 Shaoken4th Apr 2012 06:14:54 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
[up]Except as pointed out, the dictionary definition of Spaniard is a citizen of Spain, thus making this page a Nationality trope as well, and that brings up the Unfortunate Implications that we consider all spanish speaking people to be from Spain.

For the Swasbuckler part, that I agree we can look past the standard dictionary for Swashbuckler though. But in my opinion Spaniard has to go; it makes about as much sense as saying that all English Speakers are Badass Englishmen (granted my belief is mostly because I've been told it is incredibly wrong to call a latino a Spaniard). Hispanic seems like a good substitute, unless it's the same problem in reverse. Or if worse comes to worse a split; the current trope for Spanish characters or characters that invoke Spanish imagery, and another one doing the same for Latino characters.

On a side note we could cut the whole page as is and lose nothing of value; the only qualifier for it seems to be "Badass Normal" and "Speaks Spanish," so it's essentially a subset of examples that are already on Badass Normal. So we really need to make this one stand out on it's own. We already have a Swashbuckler trope (albiet more for the story type than a character type), but there's probably more room for this character type.
I have never heard "Swashbuckling" tied to swords. It's about that adventurous, rogueish, Errol Flynn-ish character archetype.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Badass Normal has nothing at all to do with this trope, no matter how the page may misuse it.

Badass Normal is a person without superpowers that manages to keep up with superheroes. They can not exist outside of superhero stories.
21 shimaspawn4th Apr 2012 06:56:03 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
The word means literally fighting with a sword and buckler. It comes from combining the sound of a fencing saber with the word bucker. The genre is a rigid fencing based genre popularized by Flynn, yes, but the genre conventions actually do require swords, fencing sabers or foils to be specific. It's not just any romantic hero.

edited 4th Apr '12 6:57:07 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
22 Shaoken4th Apr 2012 09:02:38 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
So, what exactly is this trope then? The description relates to Spanish history and fighting with weapons like Raipers, but it seems to be more about the feel of these characters than the weapons. Some people brought up Zorro Clone as a possible rename, but that would be more restrictive (and would disqualify the biggest example of a Zorro-inspired character).

edited 4th Apr '12 9:05:50 PM by Shaoken

23 shimaspawn4th Apr 2012 09:08:12 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Batman is not this trope. This trope is really a cultural sterotype of Hispanic characters as romantic, charming, dashing, badasses that follow a moral code, not always good or evil but a code, or calling most often centred on vengeance. They fight with a certain flair, have a tendency to make light hearted quips, and they always get the girl if she doesn't die. When she does die it's so they can driven by The Lost Lenore type character as part of their goal. They're almost always either anti-heroes or anti-establishment heroes, though a few are anti-villains instead.

Zorro is an example. Batman is not. It's not simply because he's not Hispanic but because he doesn't have the personality associated with the trope.

It has nothing to do with swashbucklers aside from a couple of examples overlapping with that concept. Most modern incarnations use guns, not swords.

edited 4th Apr '12 9:17:08 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
24 Shaoken4th Apr 2012 09:39:09 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
Okay, so we need a better description and a name that is not specific to a country. Then we need some clean up because there are several examples that would fail to meet that criteria.
25 shimaspawn4th Apr 2012 10:17:45 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Hispanic is probably the term we want to use in the title as it covers the ethnic range we're going for. Race is part of the trope.

I do agree that there's been some shoehorning for characters that are merely badass and Spanish.

edited 4th Apr '12 10:18:25 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick

Alternative Titles: Badass Spaniard
19th Jun '12 12:07:28 PM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:

Total posts: 182
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