Split and/or Create Supertrope: Zettai Ryouiki

No way on the rename... look at the freaken inbounds... and this is a serious thing.

If you want to split the western version from this ala Bishounen I am way for that though. They do not mean the same thing to western works (as in personality wise and other things)

Here are the current redirects... some of which need to be removed IMO as they describe Grade C which is not the trope at all (the ones that I strike though)

Knee High Socks; Absolute Territory; Golden Thigh Ratio; Knee Socks; Zettai Ryouki; Short Skirt And Knee Socks; Mini Skirt With Thigh High Socks

edited 3rd Apr '12 8:58:26 AM by Raso

You don't really describe skirts as being high. If anything, it'd be Long Socks Short Skirts.

Anyway, that does raise the point of whether we should keep the name. Don't we have the policy of only keeping Japanese trope names when they're pretty much exclusive to Japan?

We should only split off a "Western version" if the connotation is different. Otherwise, why should we make "in Japan" and "everywhere else" copies of the same trope?

Cutlisting the misleading redirects.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:00:52 AM by ccoa

Right, the attitude that "It's just DIFFERENT in Japanese media!" is really not helpful and needs to be purged from this wiki.

I'm not saying it's different, I'm just saying that in western media, people don't really notice it as much. People will go hmm, that Sexy School Woman has some high socks, but in anime fandom, there's a real term and much discussion around it.

Didn't we go over this already? I could have sworn we discussed and made a decision on this trope less than a year ago.

That is what was done for Bishōnen and Pretty Boy.

This trope has many meanings to Anime, the western version it is just a costuming trope.

Again the name really needs to stay as is it is by far one of our most popular tropes, in the top .5%.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:06:36 AM by Raso

@animeg - There are plenty of tropes that are more observed, discussed, popular, whatever, with certain fandoms. That doesn't mean that fandom or that media or genre has a monopoly on the trope, and the description should reflect that.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:06:17 AM by Martello

The question is not whether the fandom uses it more, but what the meaning behind this trope in certain media is. In Japan, is it different in meaning?

Yes, but there does come a point where two different uses for a trope which started from one origin does become two separate tropes.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:07:43 AM by KingZeal

That's true. Anime got the big eyes from Disney but now it's evolved into dozens of different eye tropes.

Zeal and animeg make good points - if I can hear a convincing argument that there is a significant difference in meaning between the !JAPANESE! version and the Western version, I'll buy it. In that case we need to make a new page for the Western costume trope.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:10:42 AM by Martello

No, if you read the pages, you'll see that the tropes are defined differently. It's not just "pretty boy in Japan" and "pretty boy everywhere else."

I'd have no problems doing this if there is a difference in symbolism.

I just pointed out instances where it's not. The anime fandom may have over-analyzed it to the point of Squick, but that doesn't mean that it is meaningless everywhere else it appears.

At any rate, I'm mostly arguing for a less anime-centric description. I gave up on renaming this one years ago.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:11:21 AM by ccoa

Where? (I am sure there are a few here and there in Anime, especially in early works but not many) It has no meaning in works outside anime and hardly get the kind of attention.

Yeah we have Tareme and Tsurime and those are just the offical eye types that people have actually named there are many other Anime Eyes actually too that probably need a supertrope.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:16:19 AM by Raso

I think it has more of a Catholic School Girls Rule connoation in the West. She's pretending to be innocent, but is more available sexually...

...The last page, Raso.

Those are western works... I was talking about Anime.

The only western works with this would be some French Maid Outfit or Playboy Bunny and such that is something completely different and almost always just Stocking Filler.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:21:05 AM by Raso

Yeah, and ccoa was talking about Western works. I think you misread her post.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1309943145053220200&page=0

Here we go. I knew we covered this in the last year. :3

I could see making a supertrope for this that could include many of the western examples, but I do think that it is a good idea to retain a Japanese-specific trope for this retaining the current description, name, etc. Just because there is a broader trope doesn't mean that we can't documment specific variations on a trope that get a great deal of attention and have a ton of examples.

There is such a thing as making something so general that you end up loosing documemntation of important tropes in the process.

That's the type of mistake that results in "tropes" like Cell Phone.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:25:58 AM by Catbert

You claimed that it never has any symbolism in Western works. That it is only a costume trope (I'm assuming you meant that it only has the purpose of fanservice, since costume tropes can and do have symbolism). I had just finished pointing out works where it does have symbolism, and identical symbolism to the "anime" version.

Ergo, it is not without symbolism in Western examples, and may have the same symbolism.

EDIT: It's worth noting that Stocking Filler is a supertrope of sorts already, but is about stockings only, not showing the gap between stocking/tight/socks and skirt/shorts.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:21:55 AM by ccoa

I was talking about the personality connections to Tsundere and such that kind of meaning.

Western works dont have that.

And I am pretty sure the supertrope to this is Stocking Filler.

GETTING TIRED OF BEING NINJAED!!!

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:24:18 AM by Raso

Raso, I just pointed out examples where it does.

We covered a lot of the issues we are currently talking about in the 500+ post discussion I post from just last summer, with plenty of good arguments and prior decisions.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:25:31 AM by Vyctorian

Yea, I'm reading. I'll be back later with more!