Integrate Literature Examples: Science Fantasy

In this YKTTW for science fantasy, ccoa brought this up:

"Science Fiction Versus Fantasy is kind of a mess. It's partly about how you can divide those genres and when it's fuzzy. Partly about how they can be combined. Partly about the conflict between the two. And a very small part about how works that combine both can be marketed as either."

So, what do we do? Clean up the examples, or change the name and description to match most of the examples?

Good question. A very good question indeed.

My gut instinct is that this is about the relationship between Sci-Fi and Fantasy. The description reads more like an essay than a trope, though, and I'm having trouble getting much more out of it than that.

Briefly skimming the examples section, the examples appear to be something like "Sci-Fi/Fantasy Grab Bag": works that include elements commonly associated with each, like robots + dragons or aliens + wizards. This is probably what happens when you toss Sci-Fi elements into a Fantasy Kitchen Sink; think that's tropable?

edited 12th Feb '12 9:27:11 PM by troacctid

How about making it a Useful Notes page about the conflict/history between Sci-Fi and Fantasy, since it would be a shame to remove all of that information?

edited 13th Feb '12 4:22:24 AM by Ekuran

I actually like most of the example section.

I like the essay and I would be loath to ditch it, but it reads like a Useful Notes page or an Anaylsis page rather than a trope.

I would suggest launching the Science Fantasy page currently under development in YKTTW, to be used as the trope for works that combine science fiction and fantasy.

Make this into an Anayslis page for Science Fantasy.

Alternativly, we can shift this into Useful Notes and move the examples to Science Fantasy.

BTW:

Science Fiction Versus Fantasy found in: 129 articles, excluding discussions.

Since January 1, 2011 this article has brought 281 people to the wiki from non-search engine links.

That's reasonably good stats for something of this nature, especially the inbounds. We should definatly not cut it entirely or chainsaw the essay.

edited 13th Feb '12 5:00:52 AM by Catbert

I like that suggestion. I'd go with Analysis rather than Useful Notes, personally, since it is analyzing the genres. Although it may be more of an analysis of Speculative Fiction in general rather than specifically Science Fantasy.

It can see it working for Speculative Fiction. The current name could become a redirect to Analysis.Speculative Fiction. Science Fantasy can take over the examples. Science Fantasy can also be linked on the Analysis.Speculative Fiction page.

Seeing that we now have several viable options on the table, I've created a crowner.

Affixed it to the thread.

edited 15th Feb '12 9:26:39 AM by BobbyG

Hm. Fandom trope?

Clocking to see if there are more opinions.

What is a clock supposed to mean in this context? Countdown to closing the thread or calling the crowner?

edited 25th Feb '12 9:10:42 AM by Catbert

I prefer using the term Science Fantasy for works combining those.

For me it doesn't really matter where the essay part is placed, but it shouldn't be on the example page. However, considering that the essay itself makes comparisons to Speculative Fiction, that's probably the best place.

To calling the crowner, I think. It is supposed to be for closure but i guess that this use doesn't harm either.

I agree with Catbert. Separate the analysis and examples into separate pages.

edited 25th Feb '12 11:25:54 AM by Gatomon41

I think it can be called now.

Calling the crowner. Locking the crowner.

I moved the essay over to the analysis page of Speculative Fiction, but I'm guessing it needs a few edits to make it a bit more generalized.

I think Science Fantasy is ready to launch, although the description can use a little work.

Yeah, a line like "It could be said that almost all Science Fiction and Fantasy stories are in fact Science Fantasy." would make me want to add every piece of Speculative Fiction out there.

I took a stab at rewriting the intro on the theory that we're looking for something that has a combination of a lot of Science Fiction tropes and a lot of Fantasy tropes.

Yeah, that description is much better.

On the other hand, I think there's more of a sliding scale of sci-fi and fantasy elements. I guess we can gloss over that by saying some works may slant towards one or the other, while still containg both elements.

Well, yeah, there is definitely a continuum, SF and Fantasy definitely don't have to be in equal measure. It should probably be mentioned on the page, but editors' natural inclination to drift might take care of a lot of that on it's own.

The Wikipedia page on Science Fantasy is a mess, on their terms anyway: "For many users of the term, however, "science fantasy" is either a science fiction story that has drifted far enough from reality to "feel" like a fantasy, or a fantasy story that is attempting to be science fiction." Followed by a string of [citation needed]s.

We're just going to have to choose to constrain it somewhere. If we choose a broad constraint (sliding scale from science fiction to fantasy), we'll end up getting a large swath of the non-horror Speculative Fiction works. Which would be fine. If we choose something more narrow (combined science fiction/fantasy settings), we get a subset of works that blur the line or use Genre-Busting. I think the latter is more interesting, because Speculative Fiction covers the former already (but it's not necessarily the correct view).

The latter does sound interesting, but it would probably be subject to Trope Decay and turn into the former, so I think we should keep it broad.

At least it contains the latter as an Internal Subtrope, so it's not all bad.

edited 12th Mar '12 11:00:45 PM by Ekuran

I went to read Tropes Are Flexible and convinced myself that you're right.

Added a little bit more on that and linked to Analysis/SpeculativeFiction. Ready to launch?

I'm guessing we should change the wicks that refer to Science Fiction Versus Fantasy when they're really referring to Science Fantasy, and move the examples over to Science Fantasy (with some alterations).

edited 14th Mar '12 11:44:39 AM by Ekuran