Clean up to match new definition NEW CROWNER 03/02/12: Greeneyed Redhead

A pattern is not a pattern if it occurs so lowly as this one does. When something happens less than 1% of the time then no one calls it pattern. It's called a random ocurrance at best.

That's applying your own arguments, not mine. Because to me a trope needs to fulfill a purpose in a work, not just be "a pattern". That's why we have tropes where there aren't many examples, but they are still tropes because they have something concrete to do when they appear, and people can expect them to happen in a specific manner.

edited 11th Jan '12 1:32:39 PM by DrMcNinja

There are no heroes left in Man.

"If Green Eyed Redhead was common In-Universe just for the sake of being some kind of superbeautiful species or something like that then yeah, it would be Rule of Glamorous. But it's not like that."

No, that is not what RoG requires.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Isn't breaking the limits of Willing Suspension of Disbelief what Rule Of requires? What I explained would fulfill that requisite.

There are no heroes left in Man.

WSOD requires anything impossible or implausible being accepted. Not just stuff that greatly defies reality. Even demographics that do not reflect reality fall under simply being unreal.

edited 11th Jan '12 1:50:47 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

I think that's precisely what ROG is, but you know, it's not the matter here.

The thing is that Green-Eyed Redhead is not a trope per se, but it can be part of the Common Color Combinations YKTTW Zulqifar is creating.

There are no heroes left in Man.

1. That has not been how any of the Rule of Index tropes defined. They can include any element where people don't care because it's cool, scary, funny, sexy, etc. Here, we don't care if this eye and hair color combination isn't as rare in fiction as it should be, because it's pretty.

2. It can be a Sub-Trope, as it has plenty of examples. And that is part of what is allowed in the Super-Trope - Sub-Trope hierarchy.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

About 1, it is as rare in fiction as it is in Real Life. As said before we take works individually, not fiction as a whole, to measure this. And even taking fiction as a whole it would be probably as common or less, so it's the same.

I don't think we need a supposed trope that is nothing else than a list just to mention that green and red are common colour combinations. It will have it's own description in the YKTTW, so having a whole page to hold examples seems a bit useless to me.

Wait, I shouldn't have said that, because now I'll be told that examples is what the wiki is about and yadda yadda. Quoting Shikamaru: "what a drag". But I still think that the same way we don't need a whole page for "Russians Called Boris" in Stock Foreign Name we don't need this page for Common Colour Combinations.

edited 11th Jan '12 2:49:59 PM by DrMcNinja

There are no heroes left in Man.

"it is as rare in fiction as it is in Real Life"

Could we have some actual numbers to back either claim? Just going "It's X", "Uh-uh, it's Y" isn't really an argument.

"I don't think we need a supposed trope that is nothing else than a list just to mention that green and red are common colour combinations."

The word "need" implies that trope pages are to be made upon necessity, which you have yet to qualify other than insist this trope doesn't meet that. That is a self serving argument, as it doesn't give anyone a fair chance to disprove it. Define "need" here, and allow us a proper counterargument.

And having a lot of examples of a particular factor does qualify for a Sub-Trope. Why? Because pages that get really long cause technical problems, which guess what, is a necessity.

edited 11th Jan '12 3:09:15 PM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

This thread was made to get rid of the real life section. That was taken care of in like two posts.

So why are we arguing about whether or not this counts as real trope?

edited 11th Jan '12 3:51:57 PM by DrStarky

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

That's just how trs thread works. Sometimes a trope has multiple issues that need to be address. Should probably change title though....

Common misconceptions still reiterated in this thread

1. Redheads with green eyes are uncommon in Real Life. Not with wigs, hair dye and contact lenses, they aren't.

2. Redheads with green eyes are more common in fiction than in Real Life. I will believe that only when I see a comparison of Real Life and fictional greeneyed redheads. With figures (even approximate ones). Until then, it's just assuming.

3. It's okay to have a page just to list examples of a common hair-eye color combination. Look at all those "anime haircuts" pages! You have to understand how anime works. In anime, most hair colors, eye colors and hairstyles have deeply ingrained, almost symbolical or stereotypical connections to specific personality traits. Here, this is not the case.

4. But there are a lot of non-anime appearance tropes! Look at Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette, for example. It goes out of its way to explain what personality type is associated with this appearance, and explicitly states that it's not just a list of all pale-skinned brunettes. The same goes on in Raven Hair, Ivory Skin (though this one is more blurry as a trope).

5. Okay. The personality associated with greeneyed redheads is "a special, important character". I've already mentioned Mary Jane Watson, initially a friend of a blonde love interest — basically, an Ascended Extra. I've already mentioned Hawkgirl, the girl on the page image, who is a secondary character, while, e.g., the brunette Wonder Woman is a main and important character in this very comic/cartoon. Yep, Starfire is one of the main characters in Teen Titans... but so are all other Titans — there's no "main" or "secondary" members in their team (in the cartoon, at least). And btw, she's the only female Teen Titan with this hair-eye color combination, in any iteration of this team ever.

I actually suggest we discuss each example; that way we'll clearly see if there's actually a pattern more than "for some completely unexplained reason a lot of authors like to give their redhead characters green, and not blue or brown eyes".

edited 11th Jan '12 4:39:00 PM by Zulfiqar

My justification is that the combination is common because artists like it, and because there are a lot of examples already, and keeping too much data on one page (which is what can result from too much lumping) causes technical issues on pages, which has happened before).

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

The combination of people resting their behinds on chairs in also common, and artists (and other authors) seem to like it as well.

Common Color Combinations won't need all examples, just 7-10 most prominent ones as a proof that, yes, this particular combination is common.

"The combination of people resting their behinds on chairs in also common, and artists (and other authors) seem to like it as well."

That's a strawman argument. I explicitly stated why they do so, in other posts, and it's not the reason people are drawn sitting down.

"Common Color Combinations won't need all examples, just 7-10 most prominent ones as a proof that, yes, this particular combination is common."

Are you new here? Trope examples do not have a numerical limit.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

Also, that trope is a supertrope. If there's a particular way of doing a supertrope that is very common it is split into it's own subtrope. So creating your new trope would only reinforce this trope being it's own page.

edited 11th Jan '12 4:57:30 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

@Zulfiqar

1. That is a really trite excuse. Almost no one puts in colored contacts—mainly because they obstruct vision and can be highly uncomfortable. Yes, a lot of people dye their hair; no, almost no one uses colored contacts

2. You misunderstand the crux of the argument. It's not that you necessarily see them more in-universe, it's just that in an event where you are unlikely to meet any green-eyed redheads in a cast of, say, twenty characters, there's usually one, and that character is usually important or special. Yes, even the examples you tried to argue didn't count—MJ wasn't a minor side character, Peter started to date her when he met her, and her appearance was important (it was a joke that Aunt May was trying to set Peter up with the Watson girl next door, and he expected she was probably ugly; when they met, she was a bombshell).

3. I think you just acknowledged my point. A "common" eye-and-hair color combination? Certainly not in real life—in fiction, though, it is. You see that since it's common in fiction, this deviates real life, and is thus notable.

5. No, she wasn't. She was...sort of a Romantic False Lead, but her appearance being striking was actually relevant. Hawkgirl is still a relevant and important character to the Justice League animated series. Indeed...she was the only other female originally. And to drive home my point, she has brown eyes in the comics. But then she's given a starring role (as opposed to her C-list status of the comics), and she's a Greeneyed Redhead! I did not say "main". I only said "important". And Hawkgirl is important—Starfire was important. They are special, unique characters. Not one-off side characters, not townsfolk, actual superheroes in their own right. Lily Potter has almost no page time, but is a highly important character regardless. She is unique, she drove the plot; she is special.

@Dragon Quest Z: Common Color Combinations are a lot like Stock Quotes. Do we need a list of all iterations of a certain common stock quote in existence?

@shimaspawn: I'll repeat my comparison with Stock Foreign Name. Does Russian Called Boris need its own page? And Russian Called Ivan? And Russian Called Natasha?..

I'm gonna have to disagree that this is a trope in aggregate. Not saying it isn't a trope but unless an extremely large number of redheads in fiction also have green eyes then it's not a trope in aggregate.

That is in fact that case, at least with non-live action examples.

edited 11th Jan '12 5:09:11 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I think it deviates by origin. I see more green eyes on redheads in western works, whereas blue seems more common in the anime I see. However, I can safely say that the majority of redheads I see have green eyes. For instance, we can look at Iron Man 2. Of the ten or so "important" characters, the two female characters both happen to be redheads with green eyes (in this case, one of the actresses had to dye her hair to meet that requirement). Now, we can indeed assume that Tony is someone that likes that trait based on his personality, but we have been given no real evidence that he makes any real distinctions beyond a woman beyond being hot. But both of the important characters are indeed green eyed redheads.

Fight smart, not fair.

@helterskelter:

Almost no one? Why do colored contacts exist then?

"in a cast of, say, twenty characters, there's usually one" - citation needed. Also, note that Starfire and Hawkgirl are aliens. Don't you think that it's much more unlikely (in Real Life) to have an actual alien in the cast?

So, now "greeneyed redhead" denotes "bombshell"?

I acknowledge that red hair and green eyes is a common color combination in fiction. I still don't think it's a separate trope, though. Just like Russian Called Boris. There are a lot of Russian Borises in fiction — much more than in Real Life. Not a separate trope, though.

Btw, you haven't refuted my main arguments from 3. and 4.

Again, does "greeneyed redhead" mean "bombshell" now?

Define "important" and "special". Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are more important than Hawkgirl ever was and will ever be. They're also all dark-haired. I now propose that being dark-haired is a symbol for "importance".

Define "special, unique". I'm afraid, your reasoning is not "Aha! I see a similar trait in Greeneyed Redhead #1 and Greeneyed Redhead #2's personalities! Thus being a Greeneyed Redhead may be connected to this trait!" and is rather "Aha! Character X is a Greeneyed Redhead! I'll put them on the page, and pretend that they now share some common trait with other examples".

Seriously. What common trait do Greeneyed Redheads share that non-Greeneyed Redheads don't? That is the question.

Bombshell is a pretty good way to describe it. It's that specific eye and hair colors compliment each other in a way that makes them be considered more attractive. The green eyed redhead and the blue eyed blonde are the two I'm familiar with.

Fight smart, not fair.

That would be great if

1. Redheads without green-eyes*
   Sexy green eyes? Currently being debated YKTT Wing, according to the eye tropes TRS
   weren't already bombshells, and if
2. The examples on the page now were all or mostly bombshells.

Neither is true.

Incidentally, someone has tried YKTTW'ing All Redheads Have Blue Eyes. He got bashed for Chairs, but he appealed to this equally chairsy page; someone defended this page, saying that it's about sexy but sensible love interests. Now that would be a trope...

No. There is no way to determine the proportion of fictional characters with these traits; hence this page means nothing. We cannot check every character, we cannot sample representatively, and if we sample randomly, we'll get something close to 0%.

edited 11th Jan '12 11:10:49 PM by Routerie

Hm, googling around for ratios, I got this which says that humans tend to find things that are rare (red hair and green eyes both being the rarest of their two classes, short of odd mutations like albinism) to be more easily distinguished. It does seem likely that it's a good signal for "this character is supposed to be noticed" since it's unusual. However, this sort of depends on the other characters. Anime and the like where characters seem to have their hair and eye colors chosen by a dart board tend not to be as common having this. Then again, I think animes tend to have redheads usually be blue eyed.

Fight smart, not fair.

Okay. As I suggested earlier, maybe we should try to discuss each example on a single basis? Then we'll see if they really have some trait in common.

We should find a common trait that's symbolized by this color combination if we want it to be a separate trope. E.g., like Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette. Even Blueeyed Blonde has some associations — it's a) innocence (or feigning thereof) b) being a good guy/girl (or, to the contrary, being a wolf in sheep's clothing) c) the Aryan ideal (be it good or bad in a certain story). Greeneyed Redhead doesn't seem to have such common traits :(