General Star Wars Thread

The literal first action of his regime was to do nothing. The Jedi and Amidala were battling the Trade Federation on their own. He sat on his ass for ten years doing nothing before the CIS became a faction equal in strength to the Republic.

...I guess I feel like the whole concept of the Jedi is disturbing. I mean, you take force-sensitive babies and indoctrinate them into this way of life so that they won't turn to the Dark Side (but also don't learn to have independent thought). Qui-Gon's the way he is because of Dooku; Obi-wan's the way he is because he survived; Yoda is the way he is because he's just so old.

and because the Jedi have to be "pure", they've also got to be very isolationist. The Jedi who actually make it out of the Temple are probably mostly diplomats. no one else gets to get out of the bubble.

and if you don't make the cut to become a Padawan, then you get sent off to become part of a laborers' work force, right? at least I remember it being like that.

What we do know is that he fiercely opposed the Trade Federation as a Senator and cried out for a response against their actions (which is probably why he was subsequently ellected as a Chancellor), but it seems he was in the process of being ellected while Amidala fought the Federation, thus it was impossible for him to interveene. Regardless, the fact he supported Amidala and called out for a stand against the Federation earned him a lot of popularity. He stood up for the corrupt and did not let them run scot-free.

Acting out against the Federation was presumably the Senate's decision (considering the way the Republic worked, he presumably had to put up a motion to condemn the Federation), not his. It could even be assumed he did try to punish the Federation, and those punishments are part of the reason for the CIS's creation.

What we next see of his government is an attempt to create an army to defend the Republic from the Separatist crisis, and when it is found out the Separatists are planning on invading the Republic, Palpatine's supposed political brillance is vindicated again, which is when the Emergency Powers thing come into play and make him nigh-unstoppable.

Using this emergency powers he leads a highly well-trained army against the Separatists to great success, and by this point he's a war hero, a beacon of justice who's been fighting the corrupt Federation for ten years and is now single-handedly keeping the Republic together in its greatest crisis in a thousand years. He wins the war, destroying all CIS leaders with extreme prejudice.

Then the Jedi, a order of corrupt fanatics, decide to usurp him and destroy all the good he's done, disfiguring this beloved figure and nearly killing him, which earns him sympathy points. Not even year after the end of the separatist war, the Jedi begin another, in this time of unprecedented crisis, people see Palpatine, the beacon of justice, as a guiding light who'll lead them out of the darkness. And thus the Galactic Empire begins.

That would be Flandarizing the Jedi quite a lot. Jedi are allowed and encouraged to think for themselves, which is why literally every single Jedi we see (Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, Qui-Gon, in the Clone Wars, Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Kit Fisto, Quinlan Vos, and the list goes on) is perfectly able to think on himself and not a mad fanatic. All Jedi are free to leave the Order whenever they see fit, and most Jedi have active lives outside of the temples (in peace-time they served as a police force of sorts for the Republic), pretty much the only Jedi confinated to the Temple are the librarians, who choose to do so.

edited 9th Oct '14 9:26:40 PM by Gaon

The Jedi became based on Corsucant because they were trusted inter-galactically as impartial negotiators and ambassadors, being extremely multi-cultural helped greatly in that regard. In theory they had very little political power or ambition for themselves, but in practice because they had such resources and autonomy they were one of the most powerful political allies you could hope for.

Jedi did not force anyone to hand over their children, but you could imagine having more Jedi from your home planet could only be beneficial politically and socially. You were free to leave the order if you so desired, you were not stuck among the ranks in any real sense. Indoctrination is pretty standard for any kind of organization, for one like the Jedi it is all part of the package. You don't get Jedi Masters of Yoda's caliber without it.

With all the talk about "Jedi this" and "Jedi that", while I'm not extensively read on the EU I did get the impression that not all of them were going around all the time swinging their overglorified flashlights and throwing shit around with the Force. Some may have to step into attention-getting action, but not all will because the situation doesn't necessarily call for it, instead quietly reasoning with people to resolve an issue or doing some minor work in the background that we don't see because it's not relevant to the storyline of the movies.

I mean, look at RL police. Is everyone going around making a lot of noise in the course of keeping the peace, like regularly having shoot-outs with gangs and such? No, of course not. A cop in some "ass-end of nowhere" quiet town isn't going to be doing the same thing as, say, one from South-Central LA, because it's inappropriate in a different context.

edited 10th Oct '14 2:29:38 AM by Nohbody

Indeed. Quoting Mace Windu, Jedi were peacekeepers first and foremost by the time of the Clone Wars. And while there is a military aspect to that, the majority of their work would be as diplomats, advisers, medics or relief workers, researchers and scientists, and so on.

That was the real triumph of Sidious's plan and the Clone Wars: it weakened the Jedi by turning them exclusively into warriors, when their mission had always been so much more.

Palpatine was not a major foe of the Trade Federation as a senator. He was seen as the consummate centrist: one who was eloquent enough to stand for the Republic in theory but who was smart enough to not tread on the plutocrats' toes, but the key was that the plutocrats revolted anyway, and then he was "reluctantly" forced into a more militant anti-corruption position because the corrupt elements were trying to overthrow the Republic itself.

It was ingeniously designed as far as the politics of it goes. He was not some great crusader until the Clone Wars started.

If the Jedi had been warriors from the start, they could have ruled the Republic as the military dictatorship it should have been, with them taking their rightful place as a Master Race caste above the rest. That the Jedi maintained a democratic government that gave the Ungrateful Bastard citizenry the power to abandon them and betray them is ludicrous.

You know, I thought that sentence looked suspiciously psychotic, but then I read the username.

Am I missing something?
-Reactivates lurking field, slinks away-

Basically in the HP and SW threads, Zephyr has a habit of advocating murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and just all-in-all horrible shit as not only reasonable solutions, but the only solutions worth a shit.

Is that some sort of trolling?
-Is thoroughly confused right now-

No, he seems to be completely sincere.

I'm fairly certain that he's just being silly. Or that he at least doesn't believe that what he says applies to real life.

Yeah, on what he actually said it is complete ignorance to believe that no one has ever fought for a democracy with no pursuit of power for themselves and been vilified by the people. Just look at Socrates. In the long run public opinion sometimes paints someone in a favorable light, but society tends to act in the moment rather than address all aspects rationally.

Socrates wasn't fighting for democracy. That's not why the democratic government of Athens killed him. They had him killed for blasphemy, and if you read the Republic, he was probably guilty by the standards of the time. Socrates hated democracy and spent dialogue after dialogue trying to build a hypothetical society and way of life that avoided it.

He hated the Athenian democracy, trying to advocate a different form of government by the people and failing. Yes, according to the laws of the time he was guilty, but if they knew he would be considered the father of western philosophy would Athens have respected him more? That's the point.

Guys, this is getting OT — there's a philosophy thread in OTC for such things.

We're comparing Star Wars with Greek history and philosophy. That's like, the highest form of being on topic.

Socrates didn't give a shit about government by the people. He wanted a strict division of labor and power in all parts of society, with actual governance done by people very much like him, without regard to the actual wishes of the people. In his mind, a government that limited and prostrated itself to the will of the dumb-as-bricks commoners would soon become corrupt, and was one step above outright tyranny.

Everything below post #2365 has nothing to do with Star Wars; rather, it is an argument about Socrates' philosophy.

edited 10th Oct '14 9:07:05 PM by desdendelle

An argument about whether Socrates's philosophy is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Well that is, by definition, government by the people and not government by monarch or king. He found flaws in democracy, specifically in the inefficient and corrupt way the Athenian council was doing it, and advocated a different system. The very concept of giving actual rights to general commoners (ie non-land owners) is extremely new, newer than the U.S. Constitution. Regardless of definition, Socrates was fighting for the citizens of Athens and eventually condemned for it.

Another example would be Dr. Sun Yat-Sen, ended up leading TWO democratic revolutions because he willingly stepped down after the first one and the military generals that originally supported him took over and wasted no time creating an empire.

Short story, the prequels are very accurate in how Empires are formed. Especially how quickly social, religious, ethnic and political groups are vilified as part of the process.

If you read any Spengler, he posits that the Empire isn't an aberration, but the ultimate destiny of human civilization.

Paying attention to Zephyr's arguments . . . they don't apply to real life. All these threads are about works in which there is a minority that has genetic super powers. In real life, there's no race with such a clear genetic "superiority." Maybe technological superiority, but nothing built right into the body.

Considering how a lot of people look down on developmentally challenged folks, it really is ridiculous how few Force Users really go evil. Lucas himself even said in the commentary to Attack of the Clones that the Dark Side is more powerful than the Light. I'd say the only understandable reason there aren't more Dark Jedi or Sith hopefuls is because it's safer for one's self to go Light Side, since the Dark Side corrupts people. You can get more powerful as a Dark Sider, but the risk to self is so much greater that it's not necessarily worth it.

ETA: Also, periods of Imperialism have, so far, always outlasted the Grand Experiment that is Democracy. It's difficult for the masses to come together well enough to maintain a long lasting country. The U.S. lasted less than a century before dissolving into two factions, and it only came back together because a small group of people were able to organize a technologically stable mass to drag the other side kicking and screaming back into it. We still haven't really recovered from that, and we're slowly sliding back towards another one.

edited 11th Oct '14 9:14:09 AM by Journeyman