Overlording the Underworld
To the point two pages ago:
Being less of a group mind would have allowed them to make that one little leap to really considering Palpatine the Sith Lord. Someone playing Devil's Advocate and investigating him would have helped, I'm sure.
And I'm beginning to prefer the EU over the PT myself. Zahn's work's the only stuff I've read so far, but it works much better for the OT than the PT does. "Golden Age" being brought down by an army of evil clones, some of whom are made up of JEDI clones? That works out much better than, "Evil Chancellor lives among the people hunting him, and doesn't get caught!"
What do you expect from a group run by a smelly worn out old Muppet?
"Show us the Galaxy Warp."
Would that it were so simple.
It was more than just a little Stupid Good...
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
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Well, your way would result in there being no plot. Your argument just seems to boil down to "if things had been completely different, things would've been completely different." And frankly, all I see you do in this thread and the EU thread is complain and rant about how the good guys should nuke the bad guys from orbit. Well, let me tell you something: if the good guys always nuked the bad guys from orbit from the get-go, not just in Star Wars but in any work of fiction, there would be no plot. Again, Acceptable Breaks from Reality. It's just a movie, you should really just relax.
Was Aliroz the Confused
Mace was not in possession of any proof of any guilt so far as Palpatine went. Preemptive striking is a good way to make an enemy, and said enemy would be an extremely powerful person.
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Which is exactly what happened. 
Would that it were so simple.
That's the problem. Those who can't do what must be done should die to make room for those who can. That's why the Jedi are just as evil as the Sith. They consigned the people of the Galaxy to twenty years of skullcracking tyranny and instead of owning up to it, they sat on their asses waiting for the chosen one to do their dirty work. When you have someone by the throat, you cut them. You don't monologue, you don't offer mercy, you cut their goddamn throat and get rid of them. The Jedi are too squeamish for that.
Idiots shouldn't be exalted as heroes. They should be what they realistically would be: corpses. And a story that relies on heroes being idiots is not a well-plotted story.
edited 18th Apr '12 5:26:42 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Forgive me, but that line of thinking sounds rather... Dick Cheneyesque.
Would that it were so simple.
How so? 
Didn't Cheney say something to the effect of "You don't negotiate with the enemy; you defeat them?" Yeah, look where that got him. Two disastrous wars and an 11% approval rating is where. And frankly, that sort of thinking doesn't work in Star Wars, OT or PT. Remember how it was Luke's refusal to "just cut the throat" of Vader or Palpatine (which Yoda wanted him to do, need I remind you) that ultimately wins the day?
edited 18th Apr '12 5:43:24 PM by HamburgerTime
Would that it were so simple.
That was only because he let Palpatine's Hannibal Lecture get to him. If he had gone in with the intention of killing both, he probably could have. I mean, Palpatine only messed him up like that because he threw his lightsaber aside. What an idiot! What if Vader turned out to be irredeemable? He should have at least kept his weapon to defend himself.
Hell, he didn't even need to be there! If he had been assisting the ground battle, it's likely the shields would have gone down sooner and the Death Star would have blown up sooner with both Vader and Palpatine on board.
And no, you don't negotiate with the enemy for the sake of negotiating with them. You beat them to a pulp and then you negotiate. If they still say no, you kill them.
edited 18th Apr '12 5:46:51 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
That would break the Aesop of the film, though. And he probably would've fallen to The Dark Side besides.
So, you don't believe in the concept of mercy?
edited 18th Apr '12 5:48:24 PM by HamburgerTime
Would that it were so simple.
An Aesop brimming with that much stupid deserves to be broken.
And you fall to the Dark Side by killing two of the most evil entities ever to draw breath? Are he Jedi supposed to be ineffective, reactive assholes then?
edited 18th Apr '12 5:48:27 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Honestly, Zephyr, your way seems a bit too pragmatic to make good storytelling. Plus, it would involve lots upon lots of character derailment.
And I would hesitate to call the Jedi Stupid Good simply because they weren't prone to be ruthless, even when it would be easier and/or more "effective" to do so. Effective is arguable as well, as as I noted before your solutions could possibly quite easily create more problems than they would solve.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Would that it were so simple.
That's why you have weapons. Either you kill new problems, or make them too busy shitting their pants to create a problem. Or you manipulate "problem makers" to kill each other. But waiting for problems to crop up and then dealing with them when they've already backed you into a corner is wrong. Properly Paranoid is the way to go.
edited 18th Apr '12 5:50:45 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
So, you'd substitute the Aesop of "(almost) Anyone can be redeemed" with "Violence Really Is the Answer?"
...riiiiiight.
edited 18th Apr '12 5:50:50 PM by HamburgerTime
Would that it were so simple.
You don't see Luke trying to redeem anyone else. I mean, a better aesop for ROTJ would be "Close family deserves redemption, the millions you kill in the process don't."
It's hypocritical. The Jedi have no problem killing mooks but as soon as its the Big Bad or The Dragon, can't do it! To kill the single most evil entity or his second in command would be Dark Side.
edited 18th Apr '12 5:54:50 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
^^ Not just violence. Violence with a healthy of pre-emtive subjugation.
I'm... not sure how to respond to that, actually.
edited 18th Apr '12 5:54:38 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Luke killed millions? Am I missing something? If anything, by redeeming Vader, Luke saved many millions more that Palpatine would've undoubtedly killed.
edited 18th Apr '12 5:56:30 PM by HamburgerTime
Would that it were so simple.
The Republic is an example of what happens when a government isn't ruthless. Nute Gunray, in all fairness, should have been shot or hanged or whatever's done for treason. And the heroes want to revive this government? Democracies need not be soft and stupid.
Luke did destroy the Death Star, right, right? He's cut down scores of Imperials. Only Vader mattered enough to put in the extra effort. He even says the reason he can't kill Vader is because he's his father. What a hypocrite.
And Vader and Palpatine both being dead would have accomplished the same thing.
edited 18th Apr '12 5:58:03 PM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
How dare a character have a weakness! And how dare that weakness ultimately turn out to be a positive thing! Heaven forbid!
Let me ask you this: do you even... like Star Wars? I mean, hating the PT is one thing, but now ANH and ROTJ are coming in for it, too?
^^ So Star Wars is your example for why ruthless government is the way to go? Not even addressing the fact that it's but one example, you are aware that the Republic had to fall because it was preordained to, regardless of it's politics, aren't you?
Furthermore, even if you were using Star Wars as a point, that'd mean you'd have to deal with the Empire as an example of ruthless governing, a system that is only fleetingly efficient, rife with corruption and turmoil that is only kept in check by the fact that the one or two guys who run it have access to Level Breakers. This also eventually fails spectacularly when said Level Breakers are inevitably challenged.
As for the general point, I'd say ruthless government have historically cut themselves down too often for me to consider them being intrinsically superior. The are, however, self-spreading system: a ruthless system tends to bring forth more, which fall and bring forth more in their wake. Which isn't really the same thing as being individually well-sustained.
edited 18th Apr '12 6:05:50 PM by KnownUnknown
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Would that it were so simple.
I like ESB the best, then ANH. ANH actually ends with a Shoot the Dog happy ending. I mean, there are millions of Imperial personnel aboard that vessel, likely average people making a living. Most of them likely aren't like Vader or Tarkin. But they had to die with the Death Star or else the Rebellion would fail and doom the Galaxy to the Empire's tyranny. So, even though Luke takes the shot and never ponders the fact that he consigned millions to death with a single blast, I do.
I dislike ROTJ because of its anvilicious Redemption Saves message. Monsters are meant to be killed. Intentions mean nothing. Only actions, and Vader killed millions. He deserves to die, not be saved, and more importantly, not be saved simply because he had a son. Did Vader give a damn about the millions of people he killed? Vader only turned back because it was Luke, not because his past actions had been objectively evil (which they were), and Luke only tried because it was his father. Luke would have killed anyone else, and if anyone else tried that with Vader, he'd have killed them.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
So for a movie to be good, the hero has to be willing to kill millions if necessary?
...riiiiiiight.
You know, Palpatine has to live for there to be a plot. Sometimes a little Stupid Good is an acceptable break from reality. And, as I mentioned, the Jedi were not portrayed positively for being Stupid Good.