Liberty and Its Limits

So, could you answer this for me, and give your reasoning behind your answers? It's for an assignment obviously, but I am legitimately interested.

Should these actions be protected under the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of freedom of speech?

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

edited 19th Nov '11 11:33:21 AM by Neuman

• 1. Yes, 's long as you don't steal somebody's flag in order to burn it.
• 2. Yes, but don't be surprised when the neighbors turn on the garden sprinklers.
• 3. Yes. Authorities should have no protection whatsoever. If someone actually goes on and kills them, all the better.
• 4. Yup. Nobody's rights were violated in the production or distribution of that speech.
• 5. You can say that, but don't bitch and whine when it gets you fired/shunned/beat up.
• 6. Yup, the religious ain't got no right not to be offended.
• 7. Yup, but it'll get you thrown out for disordely conduct.
• 8. Yup, authorities shouldn't be entitled to any protection whatsoever.
• 9. Nope, you don't own those books, so you can't burn them. If you do, you'll get sued for the value of those books plus punitive damages for not returning'em on time.

edited 20th Nov '11 5:00:18 AM by SavageHeathen

Yes, to all, except #9.

1 thats great

2 fine

3 im reluctant to say no but tis jerky

4 sure

5 let everyone know you are an idiot thats fine

6 thats good

7 nope

8 of course

9 no way

1. Yes. I normally disagree with the act itself. However, prohibiting this avenue with a law that makes "such activity illegal would undermine the very principles for which the flag stands". Passing an amendment over this is even crazier.

2. Unpopular alone does not bar this. Just about any belief can be seen as unpopular to some groups. Preaching your belief is fine.

3. Only to the point that it stays an opinion and not a scheme.

4. I honestly don't know what to say about this one, since it hinges on looking at what "obscenity" itself is.

5. Again, basic rights should be kept, simply to give the chance for the advocating side to explain the case and show genuine concern, instead of just trolling. However I would draw some strict lines to ensure that it doesn't escalate.

6. If it's a personal opinion, don't people do that already? However! If atheism/anti-religion is protected under Free Exercise Clause, it must abide by Establishment Clause.

7. That's a matter of harm more than free speech. If the intent to cause disruption is clear, then it should be penalized. Aren't theaters private property anyway?

8. Welcome to OTC.

9. Why would you take public library books and destroy them? You're still free to do that and face the legal consequences though, if you're convicted by your faith. If you're talking about censorship by the library authority itself, I don't know where to stand exactly.

My overall argument is that one should know the difference between the natural morality and consequences of doing an act, and forcing that point by law when it's unnecessary. Relying on law completely takes away the responsibility humans have on exercising discretion.

edited 19th Nov '11 11:51:43 AM by abstractematics

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

So long as it's your own legally-obtained flag, then yes, because it's just a piece of cloth.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

Yes, provided you don't trespass or otherwise cause harm to anyone you have a right to express your view to anyone who chooses to listen.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

No, because that would be deliberately endangering people's safety by conspiring to have yourself or others commit a violent crime.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

Yes. If everyone's consenting, there's no justification for limits.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

Yes, provided you're not engaging in any slander while doing so, you can express any view you wish.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

Yes, provided you're not engaging in any slander while doing so, you can express any view you wish.

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

No, because you are deliberately endangering other people's safety.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

Yes. They're no more exempt from criticism than the rest of us.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

No, because you are destroying property that does not belong to you.

edited 19th Nov '11 12:00:21 PM by Jeysie

...yes. Though I wouldn't shed a tear if the constitutional amendment that would make an exception for this in the US for the American flag passed.

Peacefully? Yes. Though the owners should also have the right to kick you to the public curb and off their property.

Er... this is very context-sensitive. I'm going to lean towards "no," but...

Yes. Well, if "made by consenting adults," you mean "made by people of legal age and featuring people of legal age," as in, the people having sex in the porn are of legal age (assuming it's real people, and not a fictional work that doesn't involve real actors).

Yes, if it isn't actively and immediately likely to create a riot/violent situation.

Yes. Once again, though, only if it's not going to cause a riot and/or immediate violence.

No. This would be a direct threat to public safety.

Yes. The world would be boring and bland if we didn't.

No. Destruction of property.

edited 19th Nov '11 1:33:20 PM by USAF713

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

Sure, why not.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

Yup.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

I guess, but I don't think the person should be surprised if he gets a visit from the Secret Service.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

Yeah.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

Yup, but it depends on how. Saying it is okay. Spray painting it on someone's house is not.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

Sure.

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

No, that causes problems and someone may call 911 and cause the fire department to come and waste money.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

Yes.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

No. It's not their books.

I agree with pretty much everything Wuggles said.

Yes to all but 7 and 9, but 3 is still incredibly bad taste.

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

Yes

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

Yes

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

No. Too many nutcases that might actually act on such advocation.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

Yes

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

Yes, een if I do find such talk personally distateful

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

Yes 7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

No, because you risk a stampede.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

Welcome to American political discussion

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

No. Public property, and I actually volunteer at a library, so this sort of thought bugs me to no end.

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

Yes. If it's my country, I won't necessarily like it, but I don't have the power to prevent it, nor do I think it's the government's business. If it's someone else's country, I couldn't care less.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

Annoying; if the person doesn't want you on their doorstep, take the hint and leave. If they seem interested, I'm all for it.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

No government in its right mind should allow that; however, if it is allowed, go for it.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

It's all good.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

Go ahead; just don't be surprised if people of those races, genders, or ethnicities decide you would look better with a knife sticking out of you.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

Dick move, but go for it; if nobody will stop you, why censor yourself?

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

Yes, because it's funny.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

Go for it.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

Not unless you're a totalitarian dictator.

A lot of these aren't freedom of speech, but I get the idea.

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.
If it's your own property, and the burning of the flag isn't likely to set other things on fire, yes. Even if it's not "as a form of political protest".

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.
Yes, but when the resident or landowner tells you to go away, the expectation should be that you do not come back.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.
Yes, although this is a tricky one. If it's a general statement that someone should knock so-and-so off, then it's probably fine. When it starts to resemble detailed directions and offers for payment, then it's probably justifiable for the law to keep an eye open, if not take action.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.
Yes. Consent is key.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.
Yes. The line is drawn at physical harm and discriminatory legislation.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.
Well, this seems to fall under the above, to some extent. Perfectly fine.

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.
And what a joke! Of course, it's up to the proprietor of the theatre decides the rules.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.
Yes.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).
This is destruction of property that is not one's own, and therefore not acceptable.

edited 20th Nov '11 4:11:05 AM by ekuseruekuseru

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest. Sure. Make sure it's your own flag, and in a legally-sanctioned area, and that the burning of said flag does not pose any immediate risks. Just make sure that you'll be liable if you do damage something/someone.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion. Yes. However, the residents also shouldn't be stopped from slamming their door in your face.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician. Yes, and no. Yes, in that if it's similar to "man, that guy should just keel over and die." No, in that if it actually resembles an assassination plan.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults. Yeah, why not? As long as everyone involved is consenting (the actors, sellers, buyers), then there's no issue.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people. Yes, I guess. Just make sure it doesn't extend into non-casual things, like work, school, etc. Also, you'll be liable for nursing your own wounds.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous. Eh, similar to the above.

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded cinema as a joke. Tricky. You have the legal right to shout that, but you're liable when you get beaten up by other patrons, and/or kicked out of the cinema, and/or banned from the establishment for life. Oh, and jailed. You can get jailed for that.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure. That's part of living in a media-fuelled democracy. You're a public figure? Get ready to be roasted by the public.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views). Fuck no. They're not your books, and also, you're liable to pay for the damages of said books, plus late fees.

Thinking about it more...seeing as the library book is public property, and the firestarter would be part of the public, doesn't that make said book his (at least in part)?

Well, it's technically council property. He'd be committing a crime against the council, in effect.

I thought about this, to be honest, and thought my wording covered it. If it was his and only his, fine, but if we want to consider "the public" or whatever, in that sense, public resources could be seen as "communally owned", in which case damaging the book is damaging everyone's property (as well as his own).

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

Yes.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

Yes, as long as you go away with zero complaints when you are told.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

No, that's advocating harm against someone else.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

Yes of course.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

As long as you are very clearly staying away from advocating any action against the ones above, I have to admit that you have right to do so. (Note that you can say anything about the organisations of such people.)

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

Yes, again as 5 with a bit more of a leeway as religion is based on choice. (Again, organisations are valid targets.)

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

No, that could cause serious harm to other people.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

Of course.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

No, they are not yours. (Even though I'd love to make a huge bonfire out of all esoteric literature. :) )

edited 20th Nov '11 6:18:52 AM by Luxa

1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Tricky but I'm going to say no with exceptions. 4. Yes 5. Yes 6. Yes 7. No, with exceptions. 8. Yes 9. No, unless you bought the book from the library

Controversial opinions should be allowed to be expressed, as long as you aren't committing actual crimes like murder or theft. The two where I noted exceptions are basically because I can imagine situations where the circumstances or phrasing would not involve actual crimes, but they could.

edited 20th Nov '11 6:37:21 AM by Hatshepsut

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. No.
4. Yes.
5. It should be socially unacceptable, but yes.
6. Yes.
7. No, that's irresponsible, endangering and a public nuisance.
8. Yes.
9. Hitler.

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

Yes. There's no need for Misplaced Nationalism

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

As long as it doesn't become a public nuisance, yes

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

Rather No

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

Yes

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

rather no, Germany has No Swastikas for a reason

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

No and yes. "unjustified","ridiculous" is Ok, but "frauds" is no-no

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

As The Other Wiki informs, NO

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

Yes, but no more than other people

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

Too controversial

edited 20th Nov '11 7:40:03 AM by SeptimusHeap

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest. Provided it's your own property, yes. For example, covering the flag in paraffin and using it as the wick of a Molotov Cocktail and throwing it at a government building would be abusing the privilege. Arson is a crime for a reason, but a flag is just a piece of cloth.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion. Yes, but be prepared for a hostile reception. You are, after all, going to someone's property without prior permission and they are entitled to decline your request to remain there and talk to them.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician. This is difficult. Inciting violence is a crime for a reason. Following the London riots, people were jailed for creating Facebook events that tried to get people together to riot, including in some cases where the events didn't actually happen, and that's legit. But at the same time, annoyedly saying "I wish David Cameron would die in a fire" or "Come on snipers, take the bastard out, he's exposed!" is harmless. Judge it case by case.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults. Yes. If it's entirely consensual at all aspects of the production and distribution, then there's no issue.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people. As with 3. this one is tricky, if only because doing so publicly implies potentially falling foul of "inciting hatred" laws, and they definitely need to exist. Privately doing it is entirely fine, but publicly I'd judge case-by-case. Not entirely sure everyone else replying to the thread has realised this.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous. This one seems like trolling for the purposes of inciting a response. In theory, it's completely okay, but if doing so gets a reaction such as a brawl starting in the streets from pissed off religious people, then it falls on you. Privately, expressing such opinions is completely fine because there's no risk of that.

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke. No. Public safety has to be maintained, and allowing people do this is a serious risk to that. Security guards aren't allowed to amuse themselves by setting off the fire alarm in said theatre as a joke, so I don't see why it should be acceptable for members of the public to do the nearest thing.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure. Yes. Criticism in itself is completely fine.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views). No. It's not your property, you have no rights regarding it - the privilege to use the books for their intended purpose is entirely separate.

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

Sure, as long as it's your property. I personally don't feel it's necessary to show any amount of reverence to a state or any symbols of a state, and even if I did I don't think "being disrespectful" is in and of itself a reason to make something illegal.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

Also fine. As long as you're not obnoxious about it, I don't see any problem with trying to spread your beliefs, no matter how popular they may be.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

If you're saying "someone should kill this person", I think it kinda depends on who you are and who you're saying it to. If you are aware that a lot of people take what you say seriously, and that if you say someone should die then one of your followers is going to kill them because you said so, then you know that what you say can result in someone's death and should watch your words. If you're not in this sort of position you have a little more liberty. If you're saying "I'm gonna kill this person", saying that is not in and of itself immoral but you've publicly expressed intent to murder and shouldn't be surprised if you get arrested. Even then, there are situations where it would be moral to kill that politician, but these are pretty rare.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

If everyone involved was a consenting adult, I see no problem.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

Again, depends who you are and who you're saying it to. It'd be pretty hard to express this sort of belief without making a few statements that are just plain factually inaccurate, which would be unethical if you're an authority on a particular subject and people take what you say on that subject to be true. And if you're expressing it in such a way that implies that you advocate violence toward a certain group, see my answer for 3. And even if you're not doing either of those things, I'd still say this is not appropriate if you're, for instance, an elementary school teacher talking to your students. Saying that stuff as a random faceless poster on an internet forum? That's fine, but don't be surprised if you get banned.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

It'd be difficult (but not impossible) to spread this kind of belief without advocating some sort of prejudice against religious people, in which case see my answer for 5.

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

Unless everyone's in on the joke this is likely to result in a panic in which people could be hurt, and therefore not OK.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

As long as you're not making inaccurate statements or going so far as "you should damage this person's property" or "you should harm this person and/or people somehow associated with them", you're not hurting anyone. If you are, see my answer for 3.

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

"Public property" is not "property of everyone, therefore anyone can treat it like their own private property". Going "lol but I'm a member of the public so it belongs ot me" is asinine. "Public property" means it belongs to every member of that community collectively, and a private individual acting as a private individual denying other individual access to public property because they feel like it is generally not OK. If they were democratically elected to act on that community's behalf it might be different, but even then I'd say banning ideas you disagree with is probably not OK.

edited 20th Nov '11 8:28:57 AM by joeyjojojuniorshabadoo

1. Burning the country's flag as a form of political protest.

Fuck no, the flag is sacred.

2. Going door to door proselytizing for an unpopular religion.

It's annoying, but it's free speech.

3. Publicly advocating the assassination of a controversial politician.

Nope, that's conspiring to kill someone. Doesn't matter that they are a politician.

4. Distributing pornography made by consenting adults to consenting adults.

Nothing wrong with it.

5. Publicly expressing the view that people of particular races, genders, or ethnicities are inherently inferior to other people.

Completely illegal. Fuck you.

6. Publicly proclaiming the view that all religions are frauds and that belief in God or gods is unjustified and ridiculous.

Free speech until you attack the indivudal people.

7. Shouting "FIRE! FIRE!" in a very crowded movie theater as a joke.

Unless someone gets hurt, it's fine.

8. Publicly criticizing a politician or government figure.

Uh, yes! Basis of democracy right there?

9. Taking books out of public libraries and destroying them in order to keep people from reading them (for example, books that advocate controversial religious or political views).

Only if they promote hatred, such as Mien Kampf.

edited 20th Nov '11 9:14:04 AM by Erock

Why is it, when an individual gets belittled, we tell to to "get over it" if they're upset, yet the same doesn't apply to when a cluster of individuals (i.e a race/gender/sexual orientation of people) goes through the same process? Why do we have to take concepts like "incitement" and "hate speech" seriously in one instance, and not in the other?