Doe Star Wars promote Racism and Sexism

Yes, but you can portray almost anything as better than genocidally evil. And the prequels never show us why the Republic is good in its own right.

edited 25th May '13 1:31:46 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

The Republic is corrupt and flawed, but still on the side of the right in the prequels-era. Which can be noted by the fact The Republic Army is far more heroic than the Separatist one, or the existence of people like Padme and Bail Organa.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

But it's only considered good when put alongside pure evil. The Republic is almost ridiculously incompetent and corrupt. There's literally nothing good about it, just that everything isn't as bad as the Empire or the Separatists — who are so evil, the comparison is just stupid.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

I frankly think you're flanderizing their bad qualities way too much. The Republic was quite flawed in the prequels, but not the absurd extent you're saying. Their army isn't just "better than the CIS", it's positively noble and brave [in moments like the Battle Of Naboo, for instance]. And again, good politicians like Padme and Organa [even Chancellor Valorum didn't seem that bad].

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

The Battle of Naboo was fought by the Gungans and Naboo humans. I'm talking the Republic. Either they're painfully stupid or they're corrupt. And Padme and Bail Organa don't count. They're protagonists in a black-and-white story — of course they're good. But random, throaway senators? They're corrupt as can be, and the Republic helps no one by existing. Name one objective good thing about the Republic, not in comparison to the Empire, but an objectively good thing in itself. The Republic is only good in comparison to the Empire, but that's like saying being flogged is better than being murdered. You wouldn't want either.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

The Clone Army was noble under the control of the Republic. Not just "better than genocidal monsters", but genuinely noble, well-disciplined and brave. This changed once Palpatine got hold of them, but the point remains.

The Senators are hard to opine on. The movies don't exactly show us many Senators, but from what I see, there were both good and evil ones. We see folks like Palpatine and The Trade Federation [who, while not being politicians, have major influence on the Senate] but we also see Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma and Valorum.

The Clone Wars cartoon, for that matter, portrays the Senate as practically evenly split between corrupt and honest.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

Furthermore, a good part of the corruption was Palpatine's influence. You know, the guy who turned the Republic into the Empire.

Notice how much of this is based on supplemental material.

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.

The only one that's been mentioned in this conversation is the Clone Wars cartoons, and those had George Lucas's involvement.

Zephy, have you ever read StarWarsOnTrial? You sound like you're either paraphrasing it, or would strongly agree with it.

edited 25th May '13 9:20:02 PM by DrTentacles

As Star Wars is based around classical knightly tales, and most of them were quite racist and sexist to begin with, it's to be expected that some of that would carry over.

Thing is, I've noticed some irony in how racism is acknowledged in-universe, and how it's actually portrayed. For instance, the Empire is claimed to be racist in the Expanded Universe, with virtually no show of that in the movies - they collaborate with Hutts and other aliens just fine. At the same time, in the prequels, most of the main cast consists of white people, while introducing a Cosmopolitan Council of aliens as the bad guys (but only in the service of another white guy). And of course, the slave army of underage clones is entirely made out of people of color, with no will of their own, ready to die at their masters' discretion; but when the Empire rolls in, its army is made out of volunteers, with Luke himself wanting to join the academy. Funny how that works.

All in all, it's not that Star Wars is racist by itself, but that fantasy epics as a whole are rife with Unfortunate Implications on race and gender. Lucas simply carries on this proud tradition, while adding a few ironic twists, intentionally or not.

edited 26th May '13 4:56:55 AM by indiana404

A Cosmopolitan Council of alien CAPITALISTS, no less.

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great

Well, the movies themselves kinda make the Empire out to be a bit racist, everyone in the Imperial Navy and all the Officers and Storm Troopers are human. And in the case of the Officers, all White as well. And all Male of course. And there's the Nazi symbolism. And the Empire doesn't really collaborate with Hutts at all, just Bounty Hunters. They just allow those Bounty Hunters to collect two Bounties on the same person, with the other Bounty being assigned by the Hutts. But that's hardly "collaboration" in any meaningful sense.

...Is Temuera Morrison a person of colour? I mean, he's mostly Scottish and Irish. And he was born and raised in New Zealand. And did they really start conscription and end the clones? Because the "a little short to be a Storm Trooper" thing doesn't quite fit with that. I'm not sure that the Academy Luke wanted to go to was for Stormtroopers. Seemed a bit vague.

edited 26th May '13 5:44:54 AM by unnoun

I thought Morrison was mostly of Maori descent, he certainly doesn't look like your typical highlander. Anyway yes, stormtroopers are actually volunteers, not even conscripts - a stark contrast to the bred to fight clone army. The Academy Luke wanted to go to was for pilots, which are still part of the stormtrooper corps. As for Leia quipping about his height - every army has some standards in that regard, and he is visibly short. Yet no other Imperial calls him out on that - another hint that stormtroopers don't come from a mold.

I take the Empire for not being particularly racist based on how race isn't ever mentioned as a negative trait. The only exception is Chewie, being called a "thing" by an Imperial officer... yet Leia calls him a "walking carpet" not much later. Maybe wookies aren't popular to begin with. Also, I noted how the alien bounty hunters are referred to as "scum" not for being aliens, but for being bounty hunters , with their race never mentioned as a factor. Vader himself acknowledges the self-governing authority of Jabba the Hutt, with frozen Han Solo as leverage.

As for symbolism, I usually raise an eyebrow at the "Empire as Nazi Germany" metaphor - that would make the Republic into Imperial Germany, which wasn't much better in the first place. If anything, that would mean the Empire is no more racist than the Republic it succeeded.

edited 26th May '13 6:33:27 AM by indiana404

The Empire being racist has more to do with the fact you pretty much can't see any aliens on their ranks [or people of color, if you want to get into that]. Their ranks are entiredly composed by [white] humans.

The Jedi Council, however, was pretty multicultural as of itself, both in regards to aliens and races [Mace Windu and Adi Gallia being of color and about 90% of them being a varied set of aliens, e.t.c]. Even the Order itself, in things like The Battle Of Geonosis, you can see a horde of entirely different and varied aliens fighting side-by-side. Within the Republic itself, There were also officers like Capt. Panaka/Panassi and that other one with an eyepatch whose name escapes me.

Even the Clone Army can more looked into, considering they're shown as being treated like equals by The Jedi, even if Palps treats them as pawns in chest.

As for the matter of analogies, techinically speaking, that would make the Republic the Weimar Republic, not Imperial Germany. But that's clearly stretching the metaphor, since The Republic isn't meant to be germany as a whole [they're the Roman Republic, if anything], just "the place that eventually becomes a analysis for Nazi Germany".

edited 26th May '13 7:38:14 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

And using any just fictional government as a stand-in for the Roman Republic is moronic. The only people complaining about Caesar or Augustus were greedy noblemen who were upset about not being able to throw their weight around with impunity any longer. Nothing of value was lost when Augustus took absolute power, whereas the fall of the Republic is very much portrayed as a bad thing.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

If you mean the Galactic Republic, then that too can be argued to be a reaction of the greedy noblemen - the Republican and later Rebel forces do seem to be led by disgruntled former senators. I even recall that the reason for adding those celebration scenes at the end of ROTJ was to show that at least some civilians were glad for the end of the Empire, otherwise we only see the Rebels' part of the story.

In-universe, the lack of aliens in visible high positions in the Empire was explained as an outcome of the Clone Wars, to avoid another Cosmopolitan Council wanting to secede. Still, it makes for an interesting question of why the first one wanted to, to begin with. Like I said, the Empire is not much more racist than the Republic, perhaps just more overt about it.

edited 26th May '13 9:27:23 AM by indiana404

I don't know if this sheds any light on the issue, but according to the Dorling-Kindersly Illustrated Guide to the second prequel, at least one of the Separatist senators was a mutant; there was a picture of an Aqualish with extra eyes among the Separatist leaders.

So that may be another minority the Republic would keep down and the Empire would want to extinguish, mutants.

edited 26th May '13 9:49:44 AM by maxwellelvis

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great

The main discrepancy that bugs me is Lucas setting up a racist Empire as the bad guys in the OT, while himself jumping at every chance to put a visually striking monster as a villain in the prequels. Between devil-headed Darth Maul, frog-faced Yellow Peril-sounding Neimodians and bug-eyed Geonosians, and the mechanized menace of Grievous, not to mention the space-bedouin Always Chaotic Evil sand people, it really feels that the main example of racism in Star Wars comes from the author himself. Which is why I feel the Nazi analogies are little more than Putting on the Reich, with no relation in terms of ideology. Lucas himself has claimed anything from the Roman Empire to Nixon's USA as influences, so I really feel that the Empire's explicit racism was an afterthought in the EU (along with such gems as the "I bid you dark greetings" salute). As for them being led by a homogeneous bunch of white males - blame UK union laws for that.

Look, it's fiction.

If you can accept a planet with only one biome, you can accept a uniformly evil species or intrinsic racism or whatnot with your suspended disbelief.

Look, it's a freakin' story, it doesn't have to be your politically correct non-racist, non-sexist, non-nazi-ish, non-disturbing, meaningful, story; because all a movie really needs to be is two hours of explosions, as dutifully explained to us by the great philosopher Micheal Bay.

If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton books

Hey, I'm nerding out here, the MST3K Mantra can wait.

I know it's fiction, but I can't help but notice the irony in having evil racists in one trilogy, and evil races in the other, and that's not even mentioning the EU. Kinda sends a mixed message - "racism is bad, 'cept for those evil space bugs we're gonna fight". Especially in a work already derided for going overboard with its Fantasy Counterpart Cultures. I don't think even Lucas is that inconsistent - he works around the classical knightly model, not World War Two. And as that model is pretty politically incorrect by itself, having a Politically Incorrect Villain doesn't really fit in.