Once Upon A Time

Been watching Disappearance have we?

edited 11th Dec '11 9:04:54 PM by Mattonymy

What? I really don't know what your talking about, so... no.

Okay, so now it's pretty much established that Regina remembers being the Queen. And for me this episode was her Moral Event Horizon.

...You mean killing her father didn't do it for you?

Well, there's that.

Okay, Midas is from Greek mythology, not classic fairy tales. I heard someone mention somewhere that Oz and Wonderland were mentioned although if they were I didn't notice. I wonder if we're going to meet other non-fairytale folk, at least in the flashbacks and if Midas came along for the ride as well.

Also notice that the whiskey Emma was drinking was McCutcheon? Shout-Out or same universe?

edited 12th Dec '11 2:30:48 PM by tricksterson

I was a little worried about the Tonight, Someone Dies nature of this episode, but I really liked how they did it. Sure, it was exactly who we were expecting, in order to keep the status quo, but the way he died was whammy enough we can forgive it.

Speak for yourself! :P I thought it was kinda annoying, and quashed potential forward movement in the meta-plot. Not that the show seems to have much of a plot right now. :(

This. The pacing of the show is really starting to annoy me. None of the characters seem entirely fleshed out, the character development goes nowhere, and the endless potholes or lack of cohesive storytelling just makes the show seem really bland and stochastic. Yes I know the writers are doing this to build tension but it's not working. It's like having a storybook read to you by a kid with ADHD.

Sheriff Grahams death seemed overly pointless to me just for what it was trying to accomplish-ie Regin showing she's "evil" (which if you couldn't tell by now, you really do have ADHD), that Emma has commitment issues (apparent by episode 1), or that they're all trapped fairy tale creatures (No Way). And the number of times "feelings" or HEART was brought up, I could set my instant rice by. And for what it's worth, I'm perfectly aware his death is unfortunately not permanent, which makes this episode's ending entirelly pointless.

What's annoying to me the most is that the show actually has some really great potential to be a deep character analysis and fairy tale Deconstruction, if the writers only let it breathe. Instead it seems like every episode is the same: "Meet [Random X Fairy Creature], Here's X now, [Required Fairy Tale Segment], Regina makes X feel bad, [RFS], Emma has an Adventure with Henry Exposition to find X, [Fairy Segment], Regina has a pointless argument with Emma, END." It seems like they're really just making it up as they go along.

edited 12th Dec '11 6:30:35 PM by Mattonymy

Also, did anyone else think that the whole Heart references were going to be a metaphor for something deeper about the character development? To quote AV Club

edited 12th Dec '11 6:35:47 PM by Mattonymy

I'm sorry... Snow White's coffin exists in the real world underneath Storybrook... I knew that his heart wasn't a metaphor.

And I believe that anyone who didn't know that, really isn't paying attention enough to the show complain about or address the plot in any significant way...*

edited 12th Dec '11 7:05:40 PM by Swish

Also from Oliver Sava's review:

The only thing that Sava's guilty of is slight hyperbole. Please tell me that you read that review Swish, before claiming that people shouldn't be throwing mud without checking its sources...

@Mattonomy: You're forgetting Gold's mandatory sequence where he turns up just to be creepy. I actually thought this week's scene could have been cool, had it been revealed like I thought, that Mr Gold was digging Graham's grave. But no, just more foreshadowing of the plot.

...though, it's also a massive plot-hole. A law enforcer accept a clearly shady guy's flimsy excuse about why he's digging in the woods? I can't be the only one whose thoughts lept to "body". It's either a plot hole, or he's shit at his job.

edited 12th Dec '11 11:52:54 PM by Nicknacks

I have a hard time accepting "slight hyperbole" when it happens near every week... But, whatever.

And, I'm sorry... But Mr. Gold isn't "shady." He's a respected businessman in the town of Storybrook, and he also owns pretty much every building in the town...

We know him to be "shady" because Mr. Gold is Rumpelstiltskin. But setting that knowledge aside, we really don't know enough about Mr. Gold to know what is or isn't "shady" behavior with regards to him. Nor do we have any real reason to think he's up to something(again, other than the fact that we know he's Rumpelstiltskin).

My point is that while, yes, it's probably important(for the viewer) to know what Mr. Gold was doing, because it may explain a few things... That doesn't mean Graham was failing to do his job as Sheriff when he didn't demand answers from Mr. Gold.

edited 13th Dec '11 1:02:52 AM by Swish

Yeah, no Swish. Show someone that scene in isolation and it doesn't pass the smell test. You've got a guy in the woods, waving a shovel around in a somewhat threatening manner, who when asked for an explanation, says that he's gardening. In a suit. With a cane. In the woods.

He's blatantly lying. You don't have to be genre savvy to work that out, you just need eyes and ears.

Add in that Graham was not really in a clear thinking frame of mind.

But one does have to wonder, what was Rumple doing there? It occurs that maybe he was gardening but what would he be growing in the middle of the woods? My mind springs to marijuana and a stoned Mr. Gold.

BTW, what happened to Emmas Living Lie Detector powers? They haven't been brought up since the pilot i think.

Firstly, carrying a shovel as you walk isn't "waving a shovel around in a somewhat threatening manner." Not unless you believe that by just having a gun you're threatening people... In which case, you're frakking insane. Honestly, how do you think one is supposed to carry a shovel?

Second, no cane. Yes he's in a suit, and that's odd... But there are plenty of people who are "odd" in the world. I can name off a few OCD conditions that could be considered "suspicious behavior" if you'd like. Again, for all we know, Mr. Gold could be playing up that he's eccentric, with OCD, and does weird shit all the time.

And since we've only seen Mr. Gold interact with other people all of 4 times for a total of 7 minutes, I don't see how we can make a basis as to what his personality is(other than "suspicious" which again, only comes from the fact that we know he's Rumpelstiltskin).

My personal theory is that Gold was unearthing something from the Fairy-tale world, that will be important to someone in Storybrook in later episodes...

I agree, but I'm not sure how it's supposed to come up in a way that's believable. Not to mention the fact that no one has really lied to Emma since the first episode...

Regina didn't really lie when she just said it was her father's tomb... And a Living Lie Detector doesn't usually find half-truths, unless the information spoken aloud was the lie... Not to mention the whole deal of "person believes themselves to be telling the truth" bit, which was Graham the whole way.

Then again, if Regina comments on Graham's "heart attack", well I think it might flag something, depending on the wording...

... The scenes where the huntsman regained memories all followed kisses from Emma. Given the history of her parents, this is exceedingly unlikely to be a coincidence. So most likely, her kiss is the key to breaking the amnesia aspect of the curse. This has.. certain practical problems. I mean, an episode titled "Emma Swan Macks on Everyone" where we follow her doing that all the while bitching that she is going to end up with mono would be murderously hilarious, but it also would be a rather severe tonal break with the show.

Dibs on a private screening of the Ruby and Mary scenes.

Watch the scene again. The blade of that shovel is inches away from Graham's head, and yes he has a cane.

Plus, you agree that he wasn't there to garden — you theorise that he was digging something up! So you don't believe him either, when he says he's gardening. Why should a law enforcement officer, a person who is trained to be suspicious of people, not interrogate a person who is clearly lying? It's just another case of people not asking questions, like Lost.

You're right, there was a cane... It never leaves his hand, and never moves more than an inch from Gold's right leg... Being used to assist in walking, and whatnot...

But with regards to the shovel... if by "inches" you mean "no closer than 2 feet away" you'd be correct. The scene the shovel gets closest to Graham, it's pointed off to Graham's right(Gold's left), being carried in Gold's left hand as he walks past Graham, and only looks closer than it actually is due to the placement of the camera during the scene. At no point during the entire 2 minute sequence is the shovel positioned in any way that could be construed as threatening, unless one views everything as a threat...

The thing is, I believe Mr. Gold was digging something up because Mr. Gold is Rumpelstiltskin. And Mr. Gold knows he's Rumpelstiltskin(or I believe he does). If I didn't know that, I might think it's suspicious, but only because I don't live in the town.

The Sheriff, however, doesn't know about Rumpelstiltskin(other than he's a fairytale and doesn't exist)... Graham just knows that Mr. Gold is an eccentric man who owns the town... Is it so far-fetched to think Mr. Gold owns the woods too? Why would it be okay to interrogate Mr. Gold about "suspicious behavior" he is doing on his own property?... Especially when both parties agree the person who is acting suspicious in the exchange is the guy chasing a "non-existent" wolf.

Emma would probably question it. And rightfully so. She doesn't know Gold from anyone else in the town... But Graham has known Gold for 28 years(or in his and Mary Margret's words: As long as they can remember). The fact that he accepts Gold at his word that Gold was gardening doesn't say "bad police work." It says Graham has known Gold long enough to determined that Gold tends to be trustworthy...

Edit: Is Graham a bad judge of character, though? Most definitely. But so is everyone in a town that has The Queen as a mayor and Rumpelstiltskin as a landlord... Fairytale characters are rarely Genre Savvy...

edited 15th Dec '11 11:26:06 PM by Swish

I'll give you that.

I'm quoting this, because I think you're right. I also think it's pretty obvious, and am surprised that there could be any ambiguity about Rumplestizlkin or The Queen still being the same people. If the show was trying to be ambiguous about things, they probably shouldn't have had that stinger to Episode 2. And yet people are surprised just now that the Queen can remember. It confuses me.

I'm not sure you can own big swathes of land without erecting signs and fences. Otherwise you can't claim actual ownership of the lands, and there'd be all these legal problems with trespassing and squatting and what not — which brings to question exactly how the town interacts with the outside world. Does everyone vote, pay taxes? Gold interacts with the world outside, but he might be a special case. I presume the town shows up on maps — what's to stop people from blundering in, presuming they don't. Do people blunder in, though? Regina acts like strangers are really unknown, and surely strangers would notice people not ageing, time not moving, ect. And how has Henry grown up in a town where time doesn't move and only noticed things being wrong recently. The other children never aged, but he did, there's been a coma patient in the ICU for as long as anyone can remember, and no one ever gets old or dies or gets pregnant or gives birth, like they do on tv. Unless they are, but then how does time stand still?

On the first point, it depends whether anyone was actually elected in the first place. Probably not, I'm thinking. If time doesn't move at all (which begs the question of why the curse was useful at all — no one would be able to accomplish anything at all) then there's never been any elections or re-elections.

On the second, these characters aren't fairy-tale characters. Ever. The real world versions live in a universe where genre and fiction are explicitly identified and able to be understood, as indicated by the way that they all interact with Henry's storybook, and the fact that they're meant to be real people. The fantasy versions of their characters don't operate in the same way that fairy-tale genre characters do. They're not archetypes, they have motivations, are fleshed out, and behave in ways that allow them to theoretically behave as three-dimensional, complex characters. They're not fairytale characters, because they present and are implied to present cognitive abilities that surpass those a fairytale character is capable of using.

I love how we went from discussing the metaphorical possibilities of Heart to a heated discussion of whether Rumplestiltskin actually murdered someone. Just thought I'd hang a lampshade on it.

Emma will run for Mayor against Regina

I think the town is on maps and such... They do have visitors and the like(how else does the town get supplies? It can't be self sustaining, in my mind)... It's just that no one who comes in the town stays the night. They leave by the end of the day, and thus Storybrooke isn't really used to strangers. And, I'm willing to bet, that most people who enter Storybrooke(the Coka-Cola supplier or other suppliers for example), probably aren't going to Storybrooke every 2 weeks for 10+ years. If they only do the job for a year or two(or even five), they still probably won't notice that no one is aging. Especially if they don't associate with children.

The curse is the reason why no one notices these things. But since the curse doesn't touch Emma or Henry, they do notice it. Henry probably did ask Regina questions about it as he grew up... Why else is Henry in therapy? And how long has he been talking to Archie? That's how long he's probably noticed the problems with the town... And when Henry got tired of the non-answers, or answers that didn't make sense, he sought out Emma.

Regina and Gold are probably the only two with the knowledge of time passing... And it's in both of their interests to stay quiet about that(Regina because she cast the spell, and Gold because he wouldn't want to alert Regina that he knows).

I could have sworn Mary made an off-handed comment on how there have been elections, but no one has ever run against Regina... I could be wrong about that, though...

And isn't that the purpose of the curse though? To ensure that no one does accomplish anything? Everyone seems to be in dead-end lives and not really happy with them... And from what I recall, that's the purpose of the spell...

...Naw, don't be silly. All the curse does is make romance turn wonky. Don't you know you can't be truly happy without your One True Love Interest?