Orchestrating A Win For The "Bad Guy"

Okay, long story short, my primary antagonist is a Well-Intentioned Extremist with Übermensch tendencies. She's a revolutionary and a terrorist, and definitely believes that The Revolution Will Not Be Civilized, causing enormous damage and racking up equally huge body counts in the name of her mission. Her mission?

Remove the source of power feeding the corruption and psuedo-caste system in society.

Now, for once in my writing, the villain is going to win. Her cause is just, her will is strong, and her gun is very, very large. Realistically, there really isn't a good reason why she should lose, barring a massive My God, What Have I Done? followed by total emotional collapse, which isn't likely to happen.

Problem is, she is in a bit of a love/hate relationship with the protagonist, who is the only person who could remotely be considered her Morality Chain. Saddest of sad days, he's on the opposite side, and is just as much of a Determinator as she is. Neither of them will give up until they achieve victory.

So I'm left with three options:

(1) She gives in at the last minute and loses. I'm not particularly fond of this one.

(2) She wins, but in doing so irreparably damages her relationship with the protagonist, who until that point was still in the "I'm trying to save you from yourself" stage. I am really not fond of this one.

(3) She wins, but has to kill him in the process. I would go with this, as it is rather tragic and serves to illustrate that her victory did not come without sacrifice. However, I just can't see her ending him like that. She's focused and driven, but not that driven.

So far 3 looks like my best option, but I still don't like it. Anyone have suggestions for how I can pull off The Bad Guy Wins without resorting to any of the above options?

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:18:03 PM by KSPAM

I like option 3, but then again, I like to torture my characters. It could be a My God, What Have I Done? moment, as she realizes what her ambition has finally cost her, in the end. In fact, she should realize this, but still be able to keep on going forward regardless. On the other hand, if she's been Jumping Off the Slippery Slope, this could cement her transition into a full-blown villain, or even a realistic Card-Carrying Villain not Played for Laughs.

Any reason why your villain isn't the main character, here?

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:16:10 PM by tropetown

She sort of shares the position with the character you'd normally consider the protagonist. They're both running the show in this case.

Hm. Interesting. If you were to kill off the other protagonist, would you want the story to continue? If so, you might want to establish another character around who would be able to pose some sort of a threat to your Villain Protagonist; I think that watching her establish her new world against all odds would be more interesting than watching her fail, as long as she isn't a God-Mode Sue. Plus, the fact that nobody around can challenge her is worrying; it's a sign that she might be nearing Villain Sue, in my opinion.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:20:10 PM by tropetown

I have to say that, while you may not like it, #2 seems like the most likely possibility. Given that she will apparently try hard to avoid killing the protagonist, and that's she's so powerful it's very unlikely she won't win, she should easily be able to take over without killing the protagonist.

Note that this is based off of in-universe logic, not necessarily what would make the best story (though from my perspective they tend to be very closely related).

She doesn't really want to take over, she just wants to topple the current regime. After that, she steps out of the limelight and lets things run their course. Or that's the plan, at least.

And I was worried about that. It's not like you can't fight her at all, it's just incredibly hard and the best you can really hope for is to make her wear herself out before either you or your backup kicks it. Basically, fighting her head-on is hopeless, but utilizing a tactical approach based around a solid defense might work. The protagonist does almost manage this at one point, but this is during the oh-so important climax, meaning that he inevitably loses by the tiniest of margins.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:34:43 PM by KSPAM

Personally, I think that your villain should be your main hero, and you should let your current hero die; it would be a wonderful opportunity for Character Development, and it could even lead your villain into becoming less unfettered as a result. Plus, your villain sounds far more dramatic than your hero; of course, as I know nothing about your hero, that could just be my personal bias toward unfettered Well Intentioned Extremists talking. Finally, if you've really established that the more heroic character is sympathetic and likable, and all signs are pointing to him winning, it would double as both a pretty effective Player Punch (not sure if I'm using the trope right, but you know what I meant), and as a pretty nice Wham Episode, too.

If you're worried about her being unbeatable, well, why not have a shadowy Magnificent Bastard working behind the scenes, patiently moving every piece into position until he is primed to pose a very real and tangible threat to your Villain Protagonist's goal? That way, you won't have to downgrade your villain, or have her suddenly carry the Villain Ball at the last minute. All up to you, of course.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:42:42 PM by tropetown

I did have another idea. Like I alluded to in my last post, her biggest weakness is how she can be outmaneuvered. While she's powerful and a fairly competent tactician, she's only one woman, with a resistance force consisting mostly of peasants. Not to underestimate the infiltration and espionage abilities of peasants, but she doesn't exactly have the ready to mobilize forces the government does, meaning that with enough warning or a particularly good prediction, the authorities may be able to get to her objective before her and move it just slightly out of reach (like say, moving a target for assassination into protective custody, thus making her life much more difficult).

I dunno though. Not sure if it's enough.

Well, it might help if I knew what exactly she was fighting against, and what the resources she had at hand were. Did you consider giving her an Evil Counterpart? Maybe an equally competent tactician on the government's side, or even a rival rebel leader?

So wait, why is the protagonist (other protagonist, whatever) fighting her? Is he playing My Country, Right or Wrong? Or is he a beneficiary of the corrupt system, or genuinely believe that it's the better option? If it's anything that leaves him as a morally sympathetic character at all, then there's the minor possibility that the villain could win and, somewhere along the line, the protagonist gets their face rubbed in the objectionableness of this particular system, and pull a Face–Heel Turn (or Heel–Face Turn, whatever).

Basically, she's a natural born magic user, possessing much more raw talent than the artificial users brought about through gene therapy. She has power, and lots of it, but not much else than that. She has the allegiance of the lower class "unmentionables", who she uses to perform various tasks focusing on infiltration and espionage, but their reach and influence is limited, meaning she doesn't always have the right person in the right place at the right time.

As far as an equal on the enemy side, she does have one to an extent. The previously mentioned protagonist, while an artificial magic-user, is quite talented, possibly the most talented in recent memory. He specializes in force fields, and while he can't defeat her in straight up combat, he is capable of holding her off for an extended period of time. Just not indefinitely. He also has a fair amount of support from other government sponsored magic users, who, when combined, are basically omnidisciplinary, so their side is not lacking in proper tacticians and a functioning army.

He believes in the same ideals as her, but wants to change the system from the inside. He does not believe one personncan or should bring about such a large change.

edited 24th Sep '11 12:06:26 AM by KSPAM

You could have the protagonist, even after fighting hard to preserve the current system from violent disruption, still get screwed by it afterwards, maybe repeat, enough that he's ambivalent enough about the system as a whole after losing that he isn't actually irreparably angry with the person who brought it down. Maybe he thinks that the protagonist is going to set herself up as ruler afterwards, and thinks that power will corrupt her as well, and gets motivation to keep fighting from trying to save her and the world from that; then when she actually just steps off to one side, he has much less reason to be angry at her.

That might work. The main thing that ruffles both their feathers is how those in power use their abilities, position and influence to use and abuse those who don't possess magic capabilities. So maybe, over time, show him talking side-tracks from the main concern and taking a good look at just how his government runs behind the scenes.

And then, when he's thoroughly rattled but not yet broken, have the antagonist get into a long drawn out fight with him in which he learns that she has no intent to rule. Broken and beaten, he finally gives in.

edited 24th Sep '11 12:15:41 AM by KSPAM

Adding this to my list (mostly hypothetical, alas) of things I've read about in the forums and now want to read. Sigh.

Bam. There you go. So technically, the "bad guy" was your original protagonist, all along. Chalk me up as another one who's interested.

Incidentally, I should note that I did not consider this character a Villain Sue, though I will note that one of the potholes in your original post seems to suggest that you do. The idea of "character power" equaling some kind of Mary Sue is a pet peeve of mine. In fact, given the details that you've provided since, I'd say she is most certainly not one, and you shouldn't worry about that (you'd might have a concern if it was a standard good versus evil plot, but this isn't that).

One last thing I'm worried about. I'm not quite sure if I'm preaching my political and philosophical views with this character. Okay, let me rephrase that. I know my personal beliefs regarding politics and philosophy played a role in shaping this character, so what I want to know is whether or not I come off as preachy.

I mean, this character is by no means entirely right or perfect. Granted, it is insinuated that her alternative is better than the current system, but it's also made clear that for all she's done right, she's also killed hundreds and sent civilization into a downwards spiral for the next few decades, if not centuries.

It's only preachy if her actions come off as unambiguously the right choice. Or you give her a 30-page monologue.

Nah. The most she has in the way of a monologue is an interrogation scene which references her father owning a copy of Also Sprach Zarathustra and a flashback to her childhood. I won't say the flashback is short, but it's not like she spends the whole thing ranting.

It's a little bit harder to fix that problem, if it indeed exists in your work. One way to do this, I think, would be to make sure that the opposing viewpoints aren't just strawmen that your character will obviously look righter next to. Another way would be to give your character some traits that you yourself find unsympathetic; if she just has traits that you agree with and enjoy, she'll seem like she was just there to impose your message, which you won't like at all.