What about renaming Kuudere to Frosty Love Interest?
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Not that it's hugely important, but the main page for that is Defrosting Ice Queen. Without the "the".
Regardless, the soft split "types" ought to go, if nothing else, because they're pretty thoroughly covered by other tropes.
Icey/Lovey-dovey Flip Flopper?
edited 5th Sep '11 11:08:48 PM by Balmung
It doesn't have to be romantic. Period. Minori or Midori in Lucky Star for my example again. The one that hangs out with Yutaka or whatever her name is. Count Tsugumi from Ever17 as an example for the moment, she's cold towards everyone normally, but she warms up to characters besides her love interest. Saber in Fate Stay Night is mostly just stoic, but when she acts dere it's frequently just as much to Ilya or Tohsaka as to Shirou. etc etc.
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This entire action was uncalled for. It should have been left as is, or split.
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Except for that ends up interpreted for the Les Yay crowd as subtext... which is my point they go dere its seen as weakness, Moe and subtext. (sometimes the Dere side only comes out with an Armor-Piercing Question blush kinda way)
oops and no that is just an absurd title for a trope.
edited 6th Sep '11 12:10:06 AM by Raso
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I'm for launching a western trope or just a general trope for a character who is sweet but cold at first, who isn't the love interest.
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Partially Defrosted Ice Queen?
"You want to see how a human dies? At ramming speed." - Emily Wong.
I don't understand. You're using the fact that a trope is being used wrong as justification for your stance?
Cure Candy
Huh? I am saying that at minimum Kuudere will always have some subtext with it (ymmv if you see romantic connotations in it or not) however it usually not kept that kind of lowkey most are full blown romantic options.
Still this page should be kept as is... Hell we let Alien Space Bats stay and that's much worse than this.
edited 6th Sep '11 12:25:54 AM by Raso
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No. It does not always have subtext. It mostly certainly does not in Ever17, in Fate Stay Night there is a little bit of Les Yay with Saber, but only regarding Tohsaka.
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Then that wouldn't be this trope, just having their armor crack a bit isn't this. (really unfamiliar with FSN) like Tsundere the armor crack is "Dere" aka "love struck" there has to be at least a friendship/trust vibe with subtext thing going on.
edited 6th Sep '11 12:38:30 AM by Raso
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No, there doesn't, because the Ever17 thing that definitely isn't Les Yay is explicitly one of Tsugumi's humanizing characteristics. Saber/Ilya has a similar thing going on.
You are seeing what you want to see and then dismissing things that disprove your point.
Oh, and if you want to know why the Ever17 thing definitely doesn't count it's because Tsugumi is the mother of one of the two characters I'm thinking of, though her daughter doesn't know. The other relationship would be Tsugumi actually getting along with Coco, which also has no sort of romantic or sexual subtext because Coco looks and acts about ten.
edited 6th Sep '11 12:49:05 AM by Arha
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Familial love in Not knowing how to deal with your child and coming off as this counts for sure. The other one sounds like someone trying to pull off a parenting act / role or the Cool Big Sis act in somewhat the same way.
edited 6th Sep '11 1:13:26 AM by Raso
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Please spoiler that. So you agree it doesn't have to be romantic? Affection, yes, but you said love before. Basic point stands that love is not required. Affection is obviously a requirement, but it doesn't have to be love.
It will make me pretty sad if all the -dere tropes go. And I'm not an anime fan. I'd prefer to just keep it...
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The -dere tropes are tropes they shouldn't go anywhere.
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The -dere tropes are of course tropes, they are actually all quite widely used tropes and they should be kept as tropes. But they should be kept under names understandable to everyone.
What I don't get is why people at the one hand defend the -dere names, but on the other hand demand that a new name should reflect every little aspect of the trope. The -dere names dosen't include all the alleged meanings of the trope, neither to people not speaking japanese nor to those who do.
It is not the name which includes all the meanings, people connect the meanings with the name.
What I don't get is why people at the one hand defend the -dere names, but on the other hand demand that a new name should reflect every little aspect of the trope.
The reason given for requiring a name change is, "[T]he whole '...dere' family of names should be chucked out in favor of something descriptive" (Fast Eddie, post 8 of this thread)
The counterargument is that none of the offered alternatives are more descriptive, so why change it?
edited 6th Sep '11 4:38:11 AM by Quadhelix
Most of the suggested names are more descriptive than the -dere names, they just don't include all meanings.
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Most if not all would be good redirects for Defrosting Ice Queen.
The term really needs to stay its own page.
edited 6th Sep '11 5:12:08 AM by Raso
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To me, someone who doesen't speak japanese, something sounding like Defrosting Ice Queen is more desciptive of the trope (There is some overlap and at least the Type 2 sounds like Defrosting Icequeen) than some random word.
As far as I can tell, an ice queen refers is a character who doesn't really HAVE a softer side to them. Their heart is frozen, as it were. A kuudere character has a very warm heart hidden under an icy shell. I don't think there needs to be a romantic twist to it. The point is that the character really is "warm" inside, be it kindness, love or an inner child.
These are sufficiently different in my book.
Try as I might, I just cannot come up with English succinct enough to describe this. "Warmth Behind Ice", I guess?
To me, someone who doesen't speak japanese, something sounding like Defrosting Ice Queen is more desciptive of the trope (There is some overlap and at least the Type 2 sounds like Defrosting Icequeen) than some random word.
As the Forum Rules note, "Redirects are free."
The guidelines for changing trope names are that the trope name should be changed if it is:
-Incoherent: In other words, the name has nothing to do with the trope. That is not the case here, as the idea for the trope comes from the character type referred to as a "kuudere" in the anime fan community. Moreover, while one could argue that "kuudere" is a snowclone of "tsundere," that is because they are related terms and both share a common root ("dere dere," apparently meaning "lovestruck").
-Word Dependent: The term "kuudere" was apparently coined in Lucky Star, but knowledge of the show is not necessary to understand the term (unlike, for example, using the name "The Corps is Mother" for a Mutant Draft Board).
-Character-Named: To my knowledge, there is no character named "Kuudere."
-Named After A Work of Fiction: To my knowledge, there is no work of fiction titled "Kuudere."
-Not Sounding Neutral Enough: To my knowledge, no one would consider the presence of a "kuudere" in a work to be an insult to the work.
Conversely, reasons for not changing a trope name include, among others: "There is no consensus. Consensus does not mean a simple majority. What does constitute consensus is hard to pin down, but a unilateral action is easy to spot."
Crown Description:
Final crowner for the trope formerly known as Kuudere. Do not add more titles to this crowner.
These types usually are, the fact that they went Dere at all is subtext that something tugged at their heartstrings.
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