What pronouns to use?: Wandering Son

I've noticed the page uses both pronouns freely.

It seems a bit disorganized that way though. One sentence uses gendered pronouns, another uses the sex pronouns, some tropes refer to them as their gender and others don't..

Oh. Gah.

We need to choose one set and stick with them. But...eargh. I'll have to think about this.

Oh boy......

Umm yeah this will be a debate.

...wait, what?

I think it would be both easiest and clearest to refer to all character by their biological sex. While this may not be the PC thing, and I don't honestly know, the page is going to be really confusing otherwise. People are much more likely to define the characters by their sex rather than their gender.

That is the problem we're referring to, correct?

edited 3rd Sep '11 11:42:18 PM by Arha

Yep, thats the issue.

And I agree that thats the simplest solution, but it almost pains me to do that.

What pronouns do the characters use for themselves? Those are the ones that we should be using.

Yeah, I know, but otherwise new people viewing the page are going to be really confused and if we go the other route the page will need regular cleanup.

^ Story about transexuals. The male lead is of the female gender and the female lead is of the male gender and they dress accordingly and stuff. Played seriously unlike a lot of anime, or so I've heard. I assume that the male uses female pronouns and the female does the opposite. The problem is that this will probably get confusing and go against what people are used to, meaning more problems to fix down the line.

edited 3rd Sep '11 11:47:56 PM by Arha

I realise it's about transexuals. Thus the pronouns that we use for them should be the pronouns they use for themselves. That's an easy way to make it consistent and still not be offensive.

I agree, the simplest way would be to use whatever they and their friends use, we probably should hold off on switching until there's an official switch in the manga or the characters themselves start correcting people.

It would also be confusing to newcomers if a character introduces themself as male and everyone in-universe refers to them with male pronouns but fans and the wiki all use female.

Nope, they both use the pronouns matching their biological sex. We should probably do the same thing in the article here.

Put a note on the page that we use the pronouns they each use for themselves. Then do so.

Do they use pronouns at all? Isn't Japanese not keen to pronouns as much as English?

Japanese is a strongly gendered language. It sounds very different if you're a woman talking than if you're a man talking.

Personal Japanese Pronouns that you use to refer to yourself are huge in japan.

There isn't just "I" there are many.

• atashi: girly
• Watashi: Gender neutral
• Boku: used by guys if a girl uses it they are a Bokukko (kko meaning girl) and a huge sign of a Tomboy or Bifauxnen
• Ore: Used by Hot-Blooded Manly Men can be like Boku.

These are make gender confusion tropes more believeable to Japanese because they go by how you speak more than your looks (visual differences can be misleading especially with Bishounen and Bifauxnen which look the same and are both viewed as hot.)

edited 11th Sep '11 10:15:10 PM by Raso

Read the question wrong. I'm aware of the gendered pronouns, I thought you meant stuff like "he" or "her".

Nitori refers to herself with "boku" and Takatsuki with "watashi", though they came to the agreement that they'll keep using those pronouns so that doesn't settle anything.

Anyway, I'm all for calling them by their gender rather than sex. We don't go around calling Yuki a boy after-all.

The Other Wiki is having issues with this problem too though.

edited 15th Sep '11 10:06:04 PM by Pichukun

Put a note on the page that we use the pronouns they each use for themselves. Then do so.

Agree. Incidentally, I had a real pain writing up another work page because the author intentionally never tells us the sex of main character and because it is written in first person and English lacks a gender distinction for first person, I can't even go with what the character uses.

I would say that, whatever their preferences and mindsets, Shu & Yoshino are still male and female respectively. That, and the fact that the story's all about him and her wanting to be her and him, leads me to feel that using their physical gender pronouns is the way to go. Otherwise things just get confusing. Especially when an entry would only refer to "Nitori" since then it becomes possible to mix up Shu & Maho.

Though in the case of Yuki, since she's a full on transsexual, has transitioned, and portrays herself as female at all times, I'm inclined to go female pronouns for that one unless the point that she's actually male needs specific addressing.

Not sure if how big a deal it'll be, but I went ahead and edited accordingly on recent entries before spotting the Repair Shop page in the first place.

edited 18th Sep '11 10:06:34 PM by sgamer82

Generally, the proper thing to do with transpeople is to use the gender that they identify with's pronouns. So their mental gender would be the correct one to use. Their physical sex doesn't matter.

In social situations, I'd agree. And within the work's trope page, there may be a legitimate point to it, though my earlier opinion stands. On any outside page, however, we're dealing with fictional characters on a site that exists largely to describe tropes and (possibly) attract people towards the stories through the trope pages. To that end, mixing up the pronouns is pointlessly confusing.

Anyone who feels that way will still know who's being referred to, while people unfamiliar with the series will know that the characters are physically male and female, eliminating confusion. Especially since most entries referring to them make a point of stating they're trans anyway.

edited 18th Sep '11 11:28:02 PM by sgamer82

As most of the time trans characters are referred to by their actual gender, not their biological sex, it will confuse people if we go contrary to standards. To that end, mixing up the pronouns as you suggest would be needlessly confusing.

edited 18th Sep '11 11:31:09 PM by shimaspawn

How common is that, really? To be honest I had genuinely never heard of it until now. I got the idea quick enough when I saw Shuichi as "she" and Yoshino as "he", but I'd never before known it was something that was done regularly, I just figured it was editors being picky.

Plus worth noting, is that while the two definitively transsexual, no argument there, they're still portrayed in-story as a male and female who want to be female and male. That's why I'll give no argument about Yuki being "she", but think Shu & Yoshino should be "he" & "she" respectively.

On the practical side, there's also my earlier point about entries that refer only to "Nitori" using female pronouns causing potential confusion with Maho.

Finally, going to the pronoun question above, they themselves use pronouns of their biological sex.

Were this a purely or majority trans-community, I think you'd be right. Most folks there probably would, and do, use the "gender" pronouns instead of the "sex" pronouns. But in a mixed community like Tropes, the simplest thing to me seems to be to stick to "sex" pronouns.

As long as it's kept consistent, I fail to see where it would get confusing. Those who know of the series and prefer to use "gender" pronouns would more likely than not still follow who's being referred to. Those who don't, or like myself never considered doing otherwise, would also know who's being referred to.

edited 19th Sep '11 12:38:39 AM by sgamer82

Locking as resolved.