need some clarification : Audience Surrogate

I'm just going by the description which says this trope is about the third point.

This sounds subjective. It's dependent on the audience not sympathizing with a character, and outside of the author stating how they think the audience should see a character or a work Breaking the Fourth Wall, I'm not sure there's any sort objective for a story to point what the audience is supposed see or feel.

I agree that the trope might seem subjective (and that the description could do with some clarification), but I think that Audience Surrogate can be objective. From what I can tell, Audience Surrogate characters tend to follow discernible patterns (i.e. they tend to have more average or normal backgrounds, they tend to not think in ways totally detached from that of the average audience member, and they offer an option for wish fulfillment).

I feel like the possible subjectivity you point to is more of an example of whether or not the author is successful at making an Audience Surrogate character. I think the idea that the character is meant to be kind of a stand-in for the audience and way for those who watch, read, or play a work to relate to him or her is definitely a trope. I would point to the Robin example on the page for evidence that it can be objective.

Still, I think the description could be clarified a bit and I could be misinterpreting the trope myself.

edited 31st Aug '11 9:39:13 PM by LouieW

Another objective sign of an Audience Surrogate is that they're the character that gets the plot explained to them. They tend to conveniently need all the weird things about the setting told to them so that the audience understands them.

Isn't that The Watson? Granted, I think that's a sub trope of this trope.

The Watson is a subtrope where that's what defines their whole role on the show.

I'm not really sure how that much different from this trope.

I'm not sure that's a trope. Idea and execution are two different things. I wanna know how this trope plays out within works regardless of my opinion of a character or whar the author wants me to feel, which least to my knowledge isn't a trope but rather the author deliberately invoking an audience reaction.

edited 31st Aug '11 10:25:57 PM by captainpat

Because that's only one facet of an Audience Surrogate. The others are a bland personality with a lack of real defined interests or hobbies which makes them a blank canvas for projecting, and being an every man in a cast that's mostly made up of special people.

Not really understanding what you're saying.

Anyway, what exactly is the is going on with the actual work that tells me a character is an Audience Surrogate, independent of my feelings or the authors intention? Nowhere in the trope description is there an explanation of what this trope is, there's just what it can be.

I added some of what shimaspawn and I said about this trope in a sandbox version of a new description at Audience Surrogate in hopes of making the trope clearer. I would definitely appreciate feedback on it.

edited 1st Sep '11 11:57:06 AM by LouieW

"tend to" or "often are" don't tell me what the trope is. There's should be a sentence somwhere that starts with "An Audience Surrogate is...."

It sounds like this needs to be made a supertrope or an index.

An Audience Surrogate is a character deliberately made more generic or underspecified than the rest of the main cast in order to provide someone that more people can identify more closely with.

How, then, does that differ from The Everyman? (And I mean our page on the trope, not everymen in general).

edited 1st Sep '11 5:56:37 PM by nrjxll

Mmm, good question. I think maybe Audience Surrogate is broader, since it can be a secondary character (but not too secondary), and can obviously be female. Aside from that, I'm not sure, but they're both well-known, well-established literary concepts, and I'm not sure they merge easily.

Not sure they don't, though.

I wouldn't go too much by our definitions, though, since these are real terms for real concepts, and our descriptions may merely be lacking in detail.

The Everyman can be female.

This is the Supertrope to The Everyman and The Watson. That's how it differs. It encapsulates both of them. The Team Normal is another way of making this sort of character. A brief definition?

An Audience Surrogate is a character that is designed in such a way to make it easy for the audience to step into their shoes to make the work easier to get into.

edited 2nd Sep '11 7:58:52 AM by shimaspawn

Yeah, I definitely think Audience Surrogate needs to be revamped as a supertrope.

• Audience Surrogate: A character that takes the place of or represents the audience in some way.
  • Ascended Fanboy: A fan of a particular genre (y'know, like the audience) becoming part of a story in that genre.
  • The Arthur Dent: A completely normal human who ends up involved with incredibly bizarre people, situations, and/or events.
  • Escapist Character: Represents what the audiences wishes they could be.
  • The Everyman: Invites empathy by being a sufficiently blank slate that the audience can read whatever traits they want onto the character.
  • Meta Guy: Makes the sorts of observations that the audience would in the same situation.
  • This Loser Is You: An Audience Surrogate that is portrayed as a loser, presumably in order to pander to the Lowest Common Denominator.
  • The Watson: Allows another character to explain things to the audience by ostensibly explaining them to the Watson.

Technically, it's already a supertrope, but it's not very clear from the article. I'm not actually sure if Audience Surrogate needs any examples — are there any examples of Audience Surrogate that don't fall under one of the subtropes?

edited 2nd Sep '11 8:05:57 AM by NativeJovian

Good structure, good list. It might even be worth making into a little mini index (trope+index).

We'll have to go through the examples, but yes, it really needs to be revamped as a supertrope. We'll put all the examples currently on the page in the right subtropes and then look over what's left to see if it needs examples.

Edit: nevermind, misread. So, uh, bump, I guess?

edited 3rd Sep '11 5:05:46 PM by NativeJovian