Unhealthy trope, unhealthy name: Diabolus Ex Nihilo

The trope name is in dog latin, presumably as yet another Snow Clone of Deus ex Machina. Whereas Deus ex Machina is a commonly used term and actual Latin, Diabolus ex Nihilo pretty obviously isn't either of that. 44 wicks, 26 inbounds says it's obviously not a healthy trope either, and neither is the trope actually related to the name it's snowcloned off.

This needs a solid name in real English, not a made-up Latin term. It has Devil From Nothing as a redirect, but that isn't really helpful either.

This was previously renamed from Diabolus Ex Vacuus, which accounts for an additional 283 inbounds — it is actually more healthy than appears.

edited 28th Aug '11 10:57:09 AM by Stratadrake

I don't have a problem with this name. Also, it's not Dog Latin; it's grammatically correct.

Yeah, Devil From Nothing is actually the translation of the phrase, which is, insofar as I am aware, correct. Usually it's applied to god, however—i.e. "god from nothing," or that god existed before everything. The "Ex Nihilo" part, not the "Diabolus" part, just to be clear on that...

As a preexisting (and correct, no less) term, I think it could stay. I also think that we should differentiate from "isn't used often" (after all, not many works outside of Speculative Fiction have bad guys just from nothing, and even then it takes a certain brand of story to get one of these) and "misuse." If it's only the former, I'd say it needs Wiki Magic, not a rename...

edited 28th Aug '11 11:16:24 AM by USAF713

If you think it's a pre-existing term, please point to some evidence thereof.

Regardless, T Vtropes is an English site, not a Latin one (and by wick/inbound count, this trope clearly isn't working well).

Ex nihilo.

Just because "ex nihilo" is an existing term doesn't mean "diabolus ex nihilo" is an existing term. Also, the usage of "ex nihilo" as little to do with this trope.

Again, this trope has an overall 300 inbounds, though only 26 of them are post-rename. Can somebody dig up the old topic to get an age estimate?

edited 28th Aug '11 11:34:12 AM by Stratadrake

The name is correctly used, but for a not-quite-analogous concept. The theological version of ex nihilo is quite different from a literary one.

In that sense, it's technically incorrect, though witty. If we rename it on those grounds, the Devil From Nothing redirect isn't really right either way, so we'd need a new name, I'd imagine...

26 inbounds [i]on the current name[/i] is a pretty good indication that the current name doesn't work. That it had more inbounds on another name isn't relevant.

We still need an age estimate to calibrate those numbers against, otherwise you're making premature judgements based on incomplete data.

According to the edit history, the rename was performed May 27th, 2011. That means the new name's collected 26 inbounds over a span of 3 months, a.k.a. 9 per month.

For comparison, Diabolus Ex Vacuus's edit history goes back to August 2010, so divide 283 inbounds by > nine months and you get 30 per month.

That's a much healthier number, but what if the article's older than August 2010? It's older than the current discussion system. So, let us assume that the old inbounds are relative to February 2009 (when the counters were installed), we are now talking 283 inbounds over a period of 27 months, a.k.a. about 10 per month; which would imply the new name is just as healthy as the old one was.

edited 28th Aug '11 11:54:57 AM by Stratadrake

To add to the above, the original name of Diabolus Ex Vacuus was simply grammatically incorrect, which is why I suggested the rename in the first place.

It's certainly older than its earliest recorded edit, because that's simply the addition of a new example, on 5 August 2010. If that were the date the page was made, the edit would be the change from blank page to a new page.

The current discussion system was installed, I believe, in April of 2010.

edited 29th Aug '11 5:44:19 PM by Madrugada

I've been using it, replacing incorrect uses of other tropes (Like Diabolus ex Machina Outside-Context Villain and Giant Space Flea from Nowhere), as far as I know this is a new name but it is also a correct name. Redirects are free and we already have a comprehensible redirect if you'd rather use that.

edited 29th Aug '11 8:53:45 PM by Cider

So let's swap it with a redirect. This is an English wiki, we can't expect the average reader to know Latin. Using Latin for established terms (like Deus ex Machina) is one thing, but arbitrarily using Latin just for the heck of it is quite another.

I'd suggest if we change it to English we call it something coherent, rather than "Devil from nothing". Like, I dunno. "Devil out of nowhere" or something.

Villain From Left Field?

Villain From Nowhere? I have no idea what left field*

left field doesn't generally have an article. It's a common figure of speech in American English that means something came from out of nowhere with no warning or explanation. It's a baseball analogy.

edited 8th Sep '11 10:55:08 AM by shimaspawn

... I can understand sticking to English, but culture-dependent phrases?

It's not something most American's think of as a culture related phrase. Call it Deboss's culture blindness. I was just trying to explain.

to be more specific, the phrase "out of left field" as a synonym for "something crazy from out of nowhere" is so idiomatic in AmE that most Americans probably have to stop to remember that the term derives from baseball. (I know I did.) Usually refers to ideas.

edited 8th Sep '11 3:08:06 PM by Xtifr

Yes, we generally try to allow for common phrases.

How many wicks has it gained since the rename?

I think this isn't used much because most creators try to at least give a bare bones reason for a villain. It's just not especially common. I think it's as healthy as it's every going to be and I don't especially have a problem with the current name but Villain From Nowhere, sounds a heck of a lot like Giant Space Flea from Nowhere, I would really rather they didn't sound so alike.