An Uncertain Future

This is a semi-spin off thread, from a handful of different discussions, though it has it's primary roots in the conversations about US bases in Europe and the thread on the downgrade of US credit. So, to start off, I'd like to apologize for my more... irrational (*cough*) reactions to the threads, and specifically to Barkey, Jethro, and Game Chainsaw specifically. I wasn't (and am not, as you can tell by this thread, though in a different way) in a very good mood.

So, on to business. Music for the mood.

I was born in The '90s, and the US of the era was, effectively, the most powerful governmental being on the planet at the time (and technically still is). The Cold War was over. The Soviet Union had fallen, and the West had "won." The response: "What now?"

Fast forward 20 years, and it feels as if the US is collapsing around our heads. For the first time in my life, I actually have a feeling that my country is falling off the deep end. When I was born, the US was the sole superpower on Earth; when I die, I wouldn't be surprised if the US wasn't even there.

So, Tropers, and want you to tell me: do you think my concern is well-founded, or nothing more than the impressionable foolishness of a young teenager who's easy to scare? If you think I'm right, tell me why. If you think I'm wrong, do the same, and what you think we need to do to fix it.

No, this is not a thread for putting blame on the Republicans or Democrats, either. Both are at fault (although perhaps not equally; you can decide which way that equality ratio goes), I that's not particularly material to the discussion. If you can provide concrete reasons, then fine, but this isn't the "oh, teh Republicans/Democrats are stoopid, tahts's why we suck now!" thread. Intelligent conversation, people, not mindless blame-assigning.

Well, have at it, I guess.

edited 8th Aug '11 6:39:02 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Eh, the world always has its ups and downs. For all there's a lot of crap on the go just now, there's been a lot worse before and the world kept on spinning. I'm worried about facing the real threat of a year without work or college but it won't last forever.

You talked about what's happened in your lifetime, since the 90s - I was also born in the early 90s and in my lifetime I've seen my country grow from an absolute mess with a declining population into one with an improved economy (on the whole) and that could also realistically become the world's newest independent nation within the decade. Your Mileage May Vary, but to me there's progress in there.

(For a guy with depression I'm quite the idealistic optimist, aren't I?)

edited 8th Aug '11 8:19:54 AM by TheBatPencil

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

Our country is in trouble but remember a lot on this forum are the new generation that can make a difference.Never give up hope because we need ideas to make this country better.I also think that maybe we should have more third party canidates come in.I also think that Independents should get official party status.

And most of all even I have trouble following it "Don't give power to fear".

edited 8th Aug '11 8:24:01 AM by jazzflower14

Being someone who is looking in from the outside, I'd say the US' biggest problem is all the internal conflict. Everybody seems to only look out for themselves and those who are just like them. The end result is a lack of consensus, and we've just seen what that can lead to. You need at least a little of it to lead a country.

Do I think this will be the end of the United States? Doubt it. But it might lead to larger problems if nothing is done about it.

Like Civil War, which if any anything should be aimed at the rich and corporatists who really caused us to become War, Inc. in the eyes of the rest of planet Earth.

COLD. HARD. TRUTH. I welcome the fall of the US, if only to create real utopia lead either by Left-Wing beings or Independents. Or a perfect combination of both. Every politicaql party is causing the downfall of America by voting ONLY on Right- or Far-Right wing policies which cater to the rich and abandon poor.

The more we abandon the Middle/Working/Poor classes for Rightist Fascism, the more likely violent revolution, or worse, anarchy seems like an imminent happening once people get eductaed and organized enough.

I predict new workers unions, if not kept in check, will be small militaires fighting for permanent control of the US, but their goals will all be the same - Power to the people and people only (As long as they support our cause)! Down with the rich and big business! Up with extermination of those who don't agree with us and work against us! Thisd, of course, is a worse case scenario.

We need true Bi-partisan ship and more political parties in America to prevent violent revolution/anarchy. We need everyone to be educated on why this needs to happen good and fast. We need to fight big gov't and force them to keep jobs here and keep Big Business from outsourcing through brute force, to start with something practical.

edited 8th Aug '11 9:00:54 AM by S3

In Neo Arcadia, there are no politics. Just Law, Order, and judgement. And violence - LOTS OF F***ING VIOLENCE! YAY, VIOLENCE!!!

We used to have three nightmares looming on the horizon; Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and Imperial Japan. Now Japan is an ally, Russia is greatly reduced in power and chastened away from its expansionist goals, and Germany is practically a symbol of peace.

We have one big, nasty dictatorship to worry about, and thats China. And they're not even expansionist... not yet anyway.

We're in a better position now, than we were in 1939. Look at it that way. China may be big, but they've got a lot of big neighbours on their borders, and even the more exploitable areas like Africa are made of sterner stuff than when the West got their claws into them during its colonial phase. They've got the AU and a lot of the progress there is missed. People always cry doom and gloom in Africa, but I doubt its a worse place now than it was in the 70's. I remember when Ethiopia was a hell hole. Despite election hiccups, there's hope there now.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Last I checked, Great Britain is still around, in spite of no longer being a world spanning empire.

Countries have ups and downs, this isn't anything new. That doesn't mean we're going to collapse by the time you're dead. We've got internal conflict, but over all I think our infrastructure is strong enough to stand under pressure. Worse case scenario, well, it's not like this country hasn't experienced a crap load of protests from its own citizens. I think you're being a little overreactionary (You seem to be overreacting period) in thinking that the US is going to completely collapse any time soon. I think other countries would try to stop that; the collapse of such a huge country would balls up the entire world's economy. And be a danger for Mexico and Canada; I'm pretty sure they don't want their nearest neighbor turning to lawlessness and chaos.

In any case, I think the US can only help its case by doing things like Barkey suggested and basically start working with the rest of the world rather than running all over it. Since the Cold War ended most of the world has gotten itself onto more even footing economically, and continuing to act like a big barking dog is only going to get us discipline. Cooperation will breed a lot more confidence than what we're doing now. Not to mention, if we can successfully build confidence in our foreign neighbors, we can rebuild some of our national pride. Pride tends to come with international good will these days.

Well, sure, Great Britain is around. The British Empire, however, is long gone, along with the other colonial empires. So thats another blight removed from the face of the world.

Now, having split everyone up in the name of freedom, maybe we need to look towards putting everything back together... without splitting each others skulls open or enslaving small nations this time.

EDIT: Personally, I think the people of this generation, myself included, are wusses. Compared to the fears the people of the five generations before us had to face, we've got China and... not a whole lot else. Most of our demons are internal.

edited 8th Aug '11 12:25:42 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

I don't know. I'd rather face a hundred Nazi Germanies and Imperial Japans, rather than a single People's Republic of China with nuclear weaponry...

edited 8th Aug '11 12:29:25 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Well, I'm not going to dismiss those concerns. I think Taiwan is in serious trouble... Japan too. Maybe India will stick up for them, they're pretty powerful and have a nuclear option of their own.

We need some means of protecting them from Pakistan sticking a dagger in their back. India is tough but they're not going to survive getting dogpiled by Pakistan and China.

EDIT: We've moved back to war. Which, incidentally, I think is exactly where China would want our eyes. They're building up an economic empire. They understand that money and influence is what builds empires, not military might (not straight away, but economic might can be converted into military might pretty quickly.)

China will not go to war until they have total economic dominance, and even then they'll only do it if they can't subdue their foes using economic means. China, I have to say, is smarter than us.

edited 8th Aug '11 12:34:06 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

It would be them against the rest though. Second most populous country on earth? India, friend to the West and on China's border.

China have enough internal issues anyway without worrying about being expansionist. Not as if they're short of land in any case.

The world is a better place now than it has been, certainly. Perfect? Hell no, but I'll take now over any time in the past for a long list of reasons.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

Sure, except the US sided with Pakistan instead of India, merely because India wasn't actively pro-US, realizing the suicidal realities of trying to be so when it was right next door to the two communist superpowers.

In hindsight, I'm astonished they aren't communist right now.

Anyhow, perhaps this is an example of the failure of American foreign policy: we chose to support those governments who liked us, not those who were actually close to our ideals and served their own people, rather than those in power. And now those who stand with us either backstab us or are disliked as much as—if not more—than the US itself, while those who would have stood with us before now want nothing to do with us.

Sad, really...

I am now known as Flyboy.

Well, maybe thats what you need. Sometimes countries need to be given a bloody nose before they can right themselves. And maybe upcoming events will be the shock the US needs.

Unfortunately that slap in the face tends to coincide with said power losing the top spot to someone else, if every empire and/or great power from Rome to Britain is anything to go by.

edited 8th Aug '11 12:44:54 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

One man in the Globe and Mail said it the best: They were syayng this in 1957, 1973, 2001... and America wasn't done for then.

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.

It's quite likely that the US will soon cease to be the superpower, but that was always an artificial situation created by the collapse of the Soviet Union. What seems to be happening is a shift back towards a more multi-polar world with a number of major powers, rather like the Great Powers of Europe that used to exist in the 19th century.

It's not likely that the US will cease to be a world power and even less likely it will somehow cease to exist. Basically, people have been predicting the decline of America since almost before it really got started and it hasn't happened yet. Prophets of doom are a bit like funeral directors; they'll get you in the end, but it'll probably be such a long time coming you won't care when it arrives anyway.

"Well, it's a lifestyle"

I can picture America becoming less relevant, but I'm not entirely sure how it's supposed to stop existing (well, unless we start tossing nukes around.) Civil war is no longer likely, and what foreign power could possibly conquer the whole country?

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

It's pure naivete. Understandable, but that's what it is.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."

Only uncertainty that worries me is the economy. Granted I have relative job security for the next 4 years in the form of the Army, (relative meaning provided I don't get a BCD, which I doubt I will) but after that, I dunno.

I don't see how the U.S. could possibly keep, or at least feign, its dominance without basically saying, "Well, we're not going to pay you, China. Nyah."

China ruffled a few feathers by asking politely that we disarm our military. The hawks in charge might prefer a war. But it's way too premature for that to happen.

As for who's at blame.... who knows. You know? Maybe Boehner and Michelle Bachmann are Mother Earth's biological agents, pre-programmed by nature to thin out the human species.

edited 8th Aug '11 5:41:09 PM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

I read the quote from the OP and was horrified by the typo before I even thought to read the reply. I then OCD'd and fixed it before I came back to read your message.

Also, why do I imagine, from what I know of you and the general (from what I can tell) tone of this message, that if we were in the same room and having this conversation, that line would have been delivered immediately after a good Dope Slap...?

I am now known as Flyboy.

^ Well because in that scenario it would be plausible that I'd slap you. In a Bright Slap kind of way to snap you out of it. Nothing painful, just a quick swat.

Though actually in a real world conservation I would probably continue this along to help you conclude why it's not worth so much fretting.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."

Well according to my 87 year old grandma they've been saying this since she was little, what with the depression and WWII and what not. But I'm pretty sure we all live, so I just take all of those people saying the world is going to end or we are going to become a dystopia with a grain of salt.

The US is a large place, with a lot of people and a lot of resources. I expect it to remain a super power for my life time, with its ups and downs but the trend has been increasing global power with increasing long-term economic problems. So the United States might suffer a major economic collapse at some point in our lives but not of the sort where the country disappears.

Really, America going to war, anywhere, bolsters all the other powers in the world. Africa doesn't seem to be moving much. South America is still building up. Russia is still poor. The European Union is struggling with growing pains and unification problems. China has some long-term problems.

However, the future in general looks generally okay. Considering a nuclear armed P Ro C is what you have had for many decades now, I don't see what your problem is. A Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan would have already used it to take over large chunks of land and then committed mass genocide on much of the locals. I can see how that's far superior to China. But sarcasm aside, there's only war if you want it. So long as China's administration remains relatively intelligent, they're not going to be picking a fight with India, US, Russia or Taiwan. If the US finances no longer sells weapons to Taiwan, the most likely outcome is slow political absorption over 50-100 years. Why would they invade? Military alliances and build-up don't actually prevent wars, they make them more likely. If China doesn't have to fire a bullet to take back Taiwan, then they won't because the costs of doing so are much greater.

I live in a weird middle-power country leaving us in a state of both "It doesn't matter who is top dog" and "We're boned". Yay.

Actually on that note, people keep saying "Well I prefer the US over China" or whatnot, so far China has paid Canada far higher prices for its goods, shovelled money into investments in this country's top industries by the billions and has fully respected all trade/political deals and stayed the hell out of the Quebec question. Compare that to the USA, I'm not sure what the fear is. There's over 3000 recorded breaches of national sovereignty by American agents each year onto Canadian soil and I'm supposed to fear Chinese spies.

edited 8th Aug '11 7:00:31 PM by breadloaf

Uranverein wasn't really all that far behind Manhattan. A couple more years and Nazi nukes wouldn't have been out of the question.

Given that, I'd take China, seeing how the alternative's explicit goal was to exterminate people who weren't them.

edited 8th Aug '11 9:08:21 PM by Pykrete

*

^{Also, your username makes me think of a villain from a Simon R Green novel.}

But Canada's the 51st state! Joking aside, what kind of breaches are we talking about? Also, allies regularly spy on each other, it's sort of an expectation. British and Israeli spies get caught here, and they catch ours, and then everyone sends them home and waits for the next round.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw