Seems to be being confused for Villain Protagonist: Byronic Hero

I added it to the sandbox version (click the link)

There's some other stuff from the current Byronic Hero page that should probably go on it, so add as you see fit in paragraphs under the bullets. Also pothole any tropes you think pertinent in the bullets.

Sounds really good. Just make sure that any potholes you add are really good fits. For some reason, a lot of editors pay more attention to what's potholed that the stuff around it, so a misleading or bad pothole can do a lot of damage.

I'd cut the the usually male line, while it is true most Byronic Heroes in fiction are male, it could come off as a this is Male Only Trope to some.

Other than that it's beautiful.

edited 14th Aug '11 9:50:01 PM by Vyctorian

They are usually male. That's legitimate. as long as we don't put it on the Always Male index, there's no reason to not include that.

"roles largely relegated to males." sounds like that it should be on the Always Male index.

Another thing is I would like to see somewhere a compare and contrast Well-Intentioned Extremist which Byronic Hero overlaps with quite often thought not always.

And a comparison with Lovable Rogue and Noble Demon.

I added in the comparison suggestions.

Thank you.

It looks to me that almost half of the anime examples on the original page need to be zapped >.<

The only ones that look to me to fit are: Lelouch Lamperouge from Code Geass, Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z, Sasuke Uchiha from Naruto, Edmond Dantes from Gankutsuou, Hiei of Yu Yu Hakusho, Shinji and Gendo from Neon Genesis Evangelion and possibly Werner Locksmith from Planetes (based on the description, I've only seen 1 episode of the anime forever ago).

Guts from Berserk might fit (haven't read it), but the emphasis is on his villainous qualities, which is totally wrong. And Light from Death Note I would say is borderline. Roy Mustang from Fullmetal Alchemist may count as well.

edited 15th Aug '11 2:50:02 PM by NoirGrimoir

Light is a Byronic hero/ Anti-Villain for the first half but then he kinda slips into Villain Protagonist.

Light shouldn't be on the list for Byronic Hero, since he doesn't brood over anything he does, except in the very beginning: in fact, he turns more and more sociopathic as the series goes on. His primary thoughts are on winning and beating L and later, Near and Mello, and becoming God of the new world, not any emotional conflict over what's going on. I can't speak for anyone else but Vegeta and Lelouch, but they are both pretty straightforward examples.

EDIT: Actually, Suzaku is a pretty good example of one, too, though he's not at all cynical. However, as far as I know, cynicism isn't absolutely necessary for this trope, just very likely.

edited 15th Aug '11 4:08:09 PM by tropetown

^I'll second that. By the end (especially in the manga's ending), it's very clear that Light's not supposed to be anything other than a villain.

So he is one at the beginning till he Slipped Off The Slippery Slope? Just say that on the page.

He's one in a flashback in the first episode. Doesn't count as being one in general.

If nothing else most of the explanations are like "He is a Byronic Hero because he is so evil and doesn't care about anyone! And does this horrible thing to so-and-so without caring at all!" So even if they fit, the explanations need to reflect the trope description, otherwise people will keep thinking that's how they are supposed to decide if someone fits.

And I'll support that Light was a Byronic Hero until after L left the picture, (he actually worried about stuff before then) at which point he just became a crazy megalomaniac because no one could really stop him.

I saw it suggested somewhere that Nico Robin from One Piece was a Byronic Hero, which I can see, so I might add her later.

edited 15th Aug '11 4:13:48 PM by NoirGrimoir

I haven't really got anything to contribute to the Anime debate, since I don't watch Anime.

But should we have Real Life examples? I think we should, because we do need to mention Lord Byron and his role in the coining of the term, and Byronic Hero isn't a subjective trope. We shouldn't mention Hitler, though, because even if he fits the definition, people might get the idea it means "bad person", not "flawed person".

And as for Webcomics, might I suggest Vaarsuvius?

edited 15th Aug '11 5:48:26 PM by CrazyDawg

I'd say leave the Real Life section and see where it goes; there isn't any reason to change it, and there aren't very many examples to begin with. I also agree that we shouldn't add Hitler to the page, for the reasons stated, though I can't say that nobody else will do it sometime in the future. As for Vaarsuvius, definitely, now that I think about it.

edited 15th Aug '11 6:21:26 PM by tropetown

Are we ready to switch out the current description for the sandbox one or should we do a crowner or something for it?

edited 15th Aug '11 6:34:52 PM by NoirGrimoir

Yeah, switch it. The sandbox is much better than the page description.

All the sandbox does is clarify the trope and make it more understandable, I don't think we need a crowner for that.

I went ahead and switched it, now we should probably clean up the examples, I guess.

Also, should we keep that quote? I left it but we could probably find a better one, honestly, even though it is about Lord Byron

The quote is just fine.

And I favour switching to the newer version.

I think we can do better as far as quotes go... how about this one about Batman:

edited 15th Aug '11 7:51:20 PM by tropetown

that quote could really be for any anti-hero. It be good for the batman page but not this one.