Pros and cons of the EU

I live in Britain but I have never really given much thought to the whole issue of us joining the EU. I don't really know anything about it and was hoping someone here could enlighten me as to why we should join the EU, and also the reasons why we shouldn't.

I usaully considered myself on the side of don't join them but that's only because the only time I ever heard of the EU was when the newspapers would talk about some crap case, where a murderer can't be deported or something due to human rights that have been forced on us by them. Yes I used to read the Daily Mail.

Just hoping someone can give me an unbiased view of the whole issue.

It gives us access to a bigger economy, and its a stepping stone for a more united foreign policy which gives its collective members a stronger voice than any one alone could possibly muster.

On the other hand, its a bureaucratic, and more seriously, an undemocratic mess that costs a fortune. My only grudge against it as I'm not much of a nationalist, but its a big point. Frankly the thing needs re-organisation, it needs to backpedal towards being a purely economic union, and then reorganise along properly democratic, federal lines, if its going to have any pretensions at all to being a proper state.

What we have now is a botched intermediary step which makes us all look like fools. I'm no Euro-skeptic, I'm the opposite, but come on Europe, we can do better than this joke!

edited 10th Jul '11 10:52:33 AM by GameChainsaw

I would be inclined to agree with these points.

The European Union actually has very little to with the issue of "murderers can't be deported because of human rights" and that sort of thing. Human rights law in Europe is governed by the European Convention on Human Rights and the attendant courts, which predate even the European Coal and Steel Community.

Same points as before, as well adopting Euro allows you to get more stable currency(altough currently GBP is more valuable, but that's because if PIGS). It also allows easier interaction between nations, as common standards allow faster and more unified interaction.

Of course, just as Chainsaw said, it needs reorganization and fast, due currently undemocratic state, which is leftover from pre-EU treaties.

Also, correct me if I wrong but... ain't Britain part of EU already? Also, if I remember correctly, you don't pay membership fee you lazy fucks, instead making other pay it. Once again, left over from old treaties.

edited 10th Jul '11 1:08:39 PM by Mandemo

We are. It was the only time the electorate made a smart decision on a referendum in this nation.

I agree with Chainsaw. For Britain to remain a political and economic force, we need be better integrated into the EU.

I'm gonna use the example of human relationships.

The EU is that one really close friend that would forget about Britain's past mistakes if it were to join him forever, whereas Britain wants to stay with bad-boy America who would leave Britain in a heartbeat. When we fall, Europe will catch us. America? They have their own problems.

^^ There are drawbacks to the Euro though. For example, the inability to set appropriate monetary policy or devalue currency, something that Portgual's been suffering from for ages.

edited 10th Jul '11 3:38:45 PM by storyyeller

Part of me wants a divided Europe so Canada will be more powerful when (of) I enter politics.

edited 10th Jul '11 6:18:30 PM by Erock

Uh, we don't pay anything? The UK are one of the biggest net contributors to the EU!

The accounts are ridiculously fucked up, having not passed their audit in 15 years due to corruption meaning the funds can't all be accounted for. It's a bureaucratic mess. When they have referendums and don't get the answer they want (that fucking constitution for one thing) they just re-ask the question until they do.

Not a fan, to be honest.

I don't really know that much about European politics but I think I can list one Pro. The EU is a significant step towards the next phase in the development of the Human species and global civilization.

Families -> Bands -> Tribes -> City-states -> *Nations -> Multi-national power blocs -> Conglomerate Super-states -> One-world government

*we are here

edited 11th Jul '11 11:07:35 AM by Gault

I agree. Go European Federation!

Yeah, but said multi-nation blocs tend to fall apart when constructed carelessly. Much like this one may be about to if we continue to fail to repair it.

For a lot of states, the EU is a necessity. That might sound a little lofty, but only united Europe has a change to remain politically and economically relevant. And while it is a bureaucratic nightmare at the moment, there is really much of an alternative.

Basically what everyone else has said already, the EU is good in principle but it practice it has major issues that need to be ironed out before it can properly go anywhere.

So the EU would be a good thing but at the moment it's pretty poorly made. I remember the Daily Mail ranting about the fact our goverment took us into it without a proper referendum or something, any truth to that?

I'd rather keep our current currency but I like the idea of all of Europe joining up in a union. Major countries like the UK and France may of used to of been great powers but not so much any more.

So if we can all agree that the EU needs to be reorganized, how would we go about doing this? Would it be disbanded for now or will someone just draw up a new draft for everyone to approve? More importantly, are they trying to reorganize it or is it being accepted as it is now?

It was a proper referendum. 1973, IIRC. As we can tell, it had a decent turnout, and it was supported by most of the populace at the time. Why not today is a mystery.

edited 12th Jul '11 3:27:06 AM by Inhopelessguy

Because the EU is seen as corrupt, incompetant and divorced from the views of its own people?

This is a rather british point of view, thanks to their jingoistic newspapers. When I lived in England, I was shocked just how many lies and simplifications were published there.

Could you give examples? Seriously, I'm interested.

@ Zarastro. I have to live with that as an ethnic minority. And pro-Europe at that too.

I meant about the EU. Racism in general? Yeah, the papers are full of it.

Maybe my statement was a bit harsh, I only read the Guardian so I was rather of shocked when I saw the other newspapers(of course, being German and thus mostly exposed to Europhile newspapers didn't help either). The EU is far from perfect and there are many issues that need to be addressed, but if I read phrases like "The unaccountable Eurocrats of the undemocratic EU-Parliament" I just get furious, although this probably counts as critical research failure.

@Inhopelessguy, I admire your determination

edited 12th Jul '11 8:04:40 AM by Zarastro

I've heard a lot of gloating over the Euro's collapse.

The one reason the U.S. so despises the EU is this: if Europe could gets its act together, it could finally quit being a client state of America and bargain on equal footing. "Oh noes, it's a secret conspiracy for a one-world government" etc.

The EU was a bad idea from the get go, though.

Client state? Ahem...

Sorry.

edited 12th Jul '11 9:00:41 AM by johnnyfog

Client state? Wow...

The EU was put together to stop another world war. To promote European harmony, free trade, and peace between the nations.

As far as I can see, it's fufilled that aim.

Okay, there may be flaws, but there's flaws in everything. For what it is, it does a pretty decent job.

It has helped reduced CO 2 emmisions, ensured economical stability (even with the PIGS crisis, the EU is the largest economy), and has promoted free trade. Our biggest trading partner is each other.

Bad idea from the get-go? Not if you were a European after WW 2.

edited 12th Jul '11 9:02:37 AM by Inhopelessguy