Rewrite Due to Fetishistic Description?: Zettai Ryouiki

First issue:

There was a suggestion to pick a different image for Zettai Ryouiki, but as an aside an issue was raised that the page description, particularly the bits about the "grading system" is a tad bit too Fetish Fuel-like.

Even ignoring the fetishistic content, I feel that it is a bit disorganised—most likely passages upon passages built one on top of the other—and tried to rewrite it in the sandbox.

The rewrite basically rearranged the topics (instead of going from one facet to another back and forth) and omitted the more obsessive-sounding parts where it sounds like gushing. (Like so.)

The structure is now: definition, elaboration, analysis, IRL background, variations/relations with other tropes, not-to-be-confused-with. Prior, the elaboration and analysis took up the majority of the space.

Peruse at your leisure: Original | Rewrite

Is this acceptable and do we need to preserve the text beyond that?

Second issue:

Also relevant to the IP thread; how much of the trope is about the most common example, and how much of it is about the grading processes?

edited 6th Jul '11 2:08:05 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

I've always felt that this article overcomplicated things, and that anything other than Class A or Class B didn't count to begin with, so why mention it? Direct people to the blog post this was gotten from for the full details.

Its a fetish trope, so that needs to be kept in mind, but the concept does not need 6 paragraphs to explain.

I agree, that confuses me, too. This is tied to the second question; I think on the one hand, the trope is about grading the length, and then approving grades B, A, and S. On the other hand, it's also used to refer to those three grades.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

Honestly, no one applies the grades. Either a character has Zettai Ryouiki, or they don't. And "Class S" is just silly anyway.

That's a good rewrite. Now, if we can just get the pic right...

From what I know of the trope, the grading system is an important part of it. Without that, it's not really the whole trope. I know the page is already limited to C, B, A, and S. Who wants to go through all those examples and wiks just to eliminate one grade?

I also don't like the fact that you removed the outside wik to the longer explanation. It's easier to cut down on the text on our page if it's there because if people don't get it they can read more there and maybe grok it.

edited 6th Jul '11 6:45:23 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

The rewrite seems pretty good to me. It simplifies the description while still making it clear what the trope is about. I think the grades should be at least mentioned in the page, I've seen them referenced places other than TV Tropes.

Current project: Cleaning up the Chrono Crusade examples one at a time. God help me.

Probably missing something here but it this even a trope? I mean "the area of uncovered thigh between the skirt and the stockings". What?

edited 6th Jul '11 8:27:02 AM by captainpat

It's a costume trope.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Thighhighs and a skirt count as a costume? well, ok.

Saw the Image thread, keep the new description.

The problem you guys seem to be having in the Image thread is that while Zettai Ryouiki is just a fashion trope to most of the world it's also kind of a specific thing (in-jokish even) between the anime industry and fandom.

Anime is mostly where the grading comes into play as creators and fandom will sometime use certain grades with certain character traits (which is where S came from),it's so well known that we're at the point where if the character is voiced by Rie Kugimiya it could even be its own grade.

Also ever heard the saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" alot of people can sum up the trope by skimming the description then referencing the graded image(probably why no one complained about the description till now).

My point is that the grading (B, A and up atleast) are a part of the trope and shouldn't be removed.

edited 6th Jul '11 9:22:08 AM by No9

If we're talking about media, a costume is anything a character in media wears. It doesn't matter if it's a business suit or gem studded bikini, it's a costume for purposes of discussing media.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Gradings, how you're explaining them, are part of how anime creators' in-jokey asides handle the trope. This warrants a mention and token explanation, definitely. Keep a paragraph.

Edit: i.e. what the rewrite does. :p

edited 6th Jul '11 10:01:02 AM by GoggleFox

Sakamoto demands an explanation for this shit.

The rewrite seems to me to have sufficient coverage of the grading system, which is not, as some are suggesting, actually part of the trope, but merely a meta-feature, ignored by many.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

If the letter grading bothers you guys that much there's also a golden ratio of 4:1:2.5 (skirt length : zettai ryouiki : socklength above knee . rest of sock) attached to it that measures where an The Same But More Specific A should be, Hatsune Miku, Rin Tohsaka, and too many Rie Kugimiya characters to name all follow it.

Leaving these out would be like making a page on the color Blue then not mentioning that it comes in different shades or that YMMV on what's considered "true Blue".

If things get ugly you could always split off Knee High Socks and have a similar trope without the measurements and baggage of the fan created term.

Edit: Google "golden ratio of 4:1:2.5"

edited 6th Jul '11 1:33:26 PM by No9

Nobody's suggesting leaving it out completely. The proposed rewrite still explains the grading system. It just places more emphasis on the actual trope itself.

Edit: "Blue" isn't tropeable, but even if it were, its article should focus more on how the color is used in works than in the scientific and technical details of the definition of the color. Even if the latter deserve to be mentioned in passing.

edited 6th Jul '11 1:57:50 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Looks better than it was before. Some suggestions:

This could stand to be eliminated. The first clause takes us back to fetish territory, and doesn't really say anything about how it's used as a trope. The second and third make me want to go [Citation Needed].

I'd eliminate this altogether: not only do go-go boots traditionally stop below the knee (which make their inclusion here rather counter-productive if one wants to keep those examples out) to be honest, trying to link both fashions to a common phenomenon seems like grasping at straws, particularly given that what the wikipedia page in question actually says is this:

• "This new style of footwear was designed for to complement the shorter hemlines of the new, modern look. Go-go boots drew attention to the legs, accentuated the simple A-line silhouettes but also offered some modest coverage for the less daring but fashion-minded women."

Yes, you can probably try to link that with the reasons why people find Zettai Ryouiki enthralling, if you look sideways and squint. But why make the connection at all, particularly if you want to tie the trope to something like Moe attributes?

Avatar art by Lorna-Ka.

I do think that the article linked in the current version should be linked in the new one. Maybe just under something that says "Here is a more in-depth look at this trope." Or something like that.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Maybe just put the stuff from the original that isn't in the rewrite in the Analysis tab?

No, it's an article off site. It really helped me understand the trope when I first encountered it and why it was a trope.

edited 6th Jul '11 3:07:04 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

The grades ARE what makes this a trope. Knee High Socks is People Sit On Chairs, but the fact that people has take it as a fetish and made grade distinctions of the appropriate lengths is what make this tropable.

Also since we dont require a picture for every single example just saying Grade B tells the person exactly what it looks like.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I'm not sure a fetish is tropable. Not that it can't have a page, since it's a fanspeak term but I wouldn't call it, least if it's being defined as a feitsh, a trope.

When its a Costume Tropes it 100% is tropeable.

edited 6th Jul '11 6:49:23 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

It's not tropable as a fetish, but it is tropable as a costuming trope that plays to that fetish.

edited 6th Jul '11 6:49:50 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick