Why are most gods not nice fellows?

Before anything, something to note:

1. This question is on assumption that every single gods are beings in tales created by humans...
2. I'm not here to bash religion...

Anyway, I raised this question back in Touhou thread before that and its response got thumped for being off-topic: Why are gods of nearly all religions are, well, not nice? Nearly all gods portrayed in various religions, including God in the Old Testament (dunno about New Testament) act like they are so easily angered and will try to constantly punish humans or something to that effect? Why do our ancestors imagined like that, and not trying to create nicer gods?

Give me cute or give me...something?

Because fear is a great way to get followers.

Can't have those pesky humans getting complacent, can we? Best to "mix things about" from time to time to keep 'em on their toes.

Nothing keeps you on your toes better than the chance of a random lightning bolt...

Assholes make for more interesting stories?

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

What Thorn said. To expand on it, the priests want their followers to behave in a particular way, for good (avoiding things that harm society) and for bad (cajole them into wars against their enemies or give the priests lots of power and money), and gods that act badass, powerfully and terribly, raining fire and eternal torture on those they don't like, were (and to a lesser extent still are) more respected than nice guys.

Also, many gods were personifications of natural forces, the kind of deadly and random forces people really wanted to have personalities so they could appease them with offerings.

edited 29th Jun '11 5:15:15 AM by betaalpha

^ The problem is that, well, Monotheistic religion god can also be pretty nasty too...why's that?

Can't we make stories where gods are pretty nice fellow, doesn't need to be necessarily total Omnibenevolence, but...y'know...

Or the Joss Whedon method exist since the ancient times? I really want to know why human just can't do good story without going past True Art Is Angsty anyway, including the idea of gods...

Give me cute or give me...something?

The New Testament God is much less of an asshole than the Old Testament one.

I think that most 'old' gods act like a lot of people would if they were given godlike power and grew up with a complete lack of a moral framework.

Be not afraid...

Because nature isn't nice.

I think it's just more interesting that way. Look at what the Ancient Greeks did. Their Gods were petty, vengeful, licentious and craven and it spawned a culture and mythology that inspired countless legendary tales and works of poetry, art, theater and storytelling that endures to this day.

Though a reason why the Greek pantheon is a lot more interesting is that they were treated rather differently than the modern Gods. The Ancient Greeks were, I believe, the first people to really propose the idea that their gods were not in fact the absolute moral end-all-be-all and acknowledged that what the Gods had planned for Humans was not by definition in their best interests or even morally right at all. Look at Prometheus. He is a worshiped figure for stealing the secret of fire from the Gods to serve Man instead. Now that is a lot more interesting than this Abrahamic genocide-commandments-chosen peoples crap.

edited 29th Jun '11 5:25:28 AM by Gault

yey

Gods are based on something, like fertility (and thus crops.) What do you think ancient people thought happened when the crops didn't come in? Or why did they lose a war when they worship a badass war god? Why did that storm sink your entire fleet? And if you have only one god, He or She is the one who caused those things (probably as punishment.) Why did the Babylonians conquer Israel, for example?

Also values dissonance.

edited 29th Jun '11 5:31:36 AM by SilentColossus

Still, can't the olds created something like 2 gods, who each represent an idea that is opposed to each other? *

Also, I read on this wiki that said something about Hestia being not too bad, thus getting less screentime...is that true?

edited 29th Jun '11 5:34:37 AM by onyhow

Give me cute or give me...something?

Some did. But as I said: Do you think your average ancient would have understood that a fleet just sunk because science? Or did someone piss off the sea god(s)?

edited 29th Jun '11 5:42:20 AM by SilentColossus

^ What I was meaning that if it's in the case of sunk fleet, then have a god that embodies the calmer aspect of the sea, and another that embodies the more destructive aspect...something like that...

Give me cute or give me...something?

This one guesses that it is because most known gods are human concepts.So it speaks more about human nature than gods. Not to mention that most of them reflect the ideas of people who had much different concepts of morality. At that time, might did make right. Gods are human spirit and nature's majesty - ingenious, magnificent, capricious and ruthless. Why do people admire Magnificent Bastards?

edited 29th Jun '11 6:01:50 AM by Beholderess

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Are the Great Enkindlers benevolent entities or not?

yey

^ Hey, don't bring Mass Effect religions into this discussion!

Good question though...so, is it because:

1. Contemporary writers have more experience after more than 2000 years of religion, so they found ways to make religions that are more benign?
2. In-universe wise, is it because of the tangibility of what the gods (Protheans) left behind shape how the religion came into existence differently instead of we only try to create gods out of intangible concepts?

Give me cute or give me...something?

Maybe some if it's because bad things happen to good people? Might be easier to say "I think Zarlinon the Skybearer was jealous you were more popular than him and blew your house over. What a jerkass." than lay it upon the cold, random chance of the universe.

i. hear. a. sound.

Anyone who played Black And White can tell you that Evil is alot more practical when being a god.

This one does not think they were, technically, gods. They are sufficiently advanced aliens for other sufficiently advanced aliens. This one dares not guess whether they, themselves, are benevolent - only that they happened to be beneficial for certain races. Their motives are not for this one to guess.

But what do players know about what this religion teaches? Almost nothing. It is easy for religion only mentioned a few times in the game to appear nice. In fact, it is "obviously evil religions" that are quite unbelievable for this one, because, if nothing else, religion is supposed to promote some basic norms of communal living in order to survive. Who said that Proteans were benevolent? Nothing is known about their society, and if what we encounter on Virmire is any indication, they surely knew how to be ruthlessly practical.

edited 29th Jun '11 6:24:54 AM by Beholderess

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

(13) I think there were a couple of Greek/Roman gods like that, but I'd have to check. I think part of the reason you don't see it too much is that a god who's pretty much always peaceful doesn't seem as powerful or godly as one guy whose sometimes nice, sometimes vengeful(above and beyond the call of duty). If a god will always let you across the sea safely, why should you feel threatened and pray to him? You should be praying to the guy who can decide on a whim "nah, fuck those sailors" and sink the ship.

A god who will sometimes say "Hm... to reward you, I've thrown your ship off course to the Isle of Lesbians and Oils" and other times say "To punish you, I've thrown your ship off course to the Isle of Brutal Sodomy" is a god worth worshipping and telling tales about.

edited 29th Jun '11 6:20:04 AM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

I think in Ancient Greece you may have gotten the reward and punishment backward

That would require the gods even giving a shit about the humans.

I liked that in Forgotten Realms.

Ao: "What? You guys are being dicks to your worshippers and just fucking around? GUESS WHAT ENJOY YOUR MORTALITY"

edited 29th Jun '11 6:22:03 AM by Thorn14

'Cause people are assholes, too. If you had to deal with assholes for millennia, you'd be a deeply cynical jerk too.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

keeps them interesting.

nice gods are not nearly as fun to read about.

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

Well, people need to justify being dicks. Most people, even Genghis Khan, don't go around saying to themselves, "I was lucky to be born into the right family. I rip people off and reduce them to slaves because I like being a son of a bitch!"

Instead it becomes, "Powerful people are blessed and everybody else are sinners." And the only way to justify that is to whip up a jealous, violent, and stark raving bonkers god.

edited 29th Jun '11 7:18:06 AM by johnnyfog

I'm a skeptical squirrel

Explanation for bad things, a moral "stick" (to go with the carrot that is Heaven or whatever), and big, big heapings of Values Dissonance. Pretty sure that many of the nasty things in the Old Testament and Hellenismos were considered Fair for Its Day.

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