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First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.

With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.

First, a few starter questions.

  • How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
    • Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Also, a personal question from me.

  • Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12976: Jan 16th 2017 at 2:41:29 PM

Also, is it wrong that I find her bad grammar absurdly endearing? Like a sort of written B.M.O. accent?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#12977: Jan 16th 2017 at 2:44:42 PM

Basically with Alley Oop on this one. There was a clear cultural and language barrier at play, and despite that the person was still willing to go back on it after someone actually explained to her what the problem was.

I think it's unrealistic and not particularly fair to expect people to have infinite patience regarding these things, but on the other hand I also think that if you go after someone with an unrestrained amount of hostility in regards to what was most likely an honest mistake, that person isn't very likely to listen to you. ESPECIALLY if you start bullying them because that's exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to stand for.

I might also point out that yeah, the US-centrism is a big problem. From my (admittedly limited) experience, people from non-anglophone and non-US social justice scenes get pretty annoyed when every issue is framed as if race relations and race problems worked the same way everywhere else.

edited 16th Jan '17 2:53:40 PM by Draghinazzo

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't there before Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#12978: Jan 16th 2017 at 3:40:03 PM

I don't get the point of limiting such dark skin cosplays. Brownface as a hollywood issue of casting white people as ethnic minorities, has a disparate impact in minority actors. A single cosplayer using tans and make-up has no such impact on minority performers. The damage is not near comparable.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#12979: Jan 16th 2017 at 3:55:29 PM

I'm with Handle on this one. The fact that she didn't intend to be offensive doesn't make it not offensive, but she dealt with the situation about as well as she could have given her knowledge at the time. She said "I don't get it, it's not that big a deal" until it seems that someone explained to her why it was a big deal, then she said "my bad, I'm sorry, I won't do it again".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
PhysicalStamina so i made a new avatar from Who's askin'? Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
so i made a new avatar
#12980: Jan 16th 2017 at 7:04:02 PM

Honestly the makeup makes her look more like Prince than anything, especially with Sombra's whole purple thing going on.

To pity someone is to tell them "I feel bad about being better than you."
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12981: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:06:12 PM

[up][up][up] The history of black and brownface extends a lot further than Hollywood casting, you know.

I mean, minstrel shows were a thing. They're pretty much half the reason that it's considered racist when Hollywood does it today.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#12982: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:30:03 PM

[up] And a woman from Korea has absolutely nothing to do with that history. She was right not to cave in to those who attacked her without explanation, because they were plainly bullies. Intentions matter, and so do reactions to messing up the impact.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12983: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:43:28 PM

I didn't say that she did? It was argued that brownface is a Hollywood issue whose main negative impact comes from denying performers of color work. I pointed out that it goes a lot deeper than that.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#12984: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:51:41 PM

I think it's more of a problem of context.

The thing is that education about racial (or most social) issues tends to be pretty dismal for most people, so they'll make mistakes in relations with others. And then, like in this case, they might have a bunch of people raining down a torrent of bile upon them and they have absolutely no context for why any of it is happening. Because the reason these people are upset is tied to a bunch of complex sociological concepts that nobody ever bothered to explain to them, and might be conditioned in a bunch of experiences they've never had.

So in order for the person to understand the problem, you will probably have to find a way to explain all those systems to them in a way that they understand, and this isn't really easy anyways because you're gonna be talking about bad and uncomfortable things no matter how nice you are about it, and we're psychologically built to avoid discomfort and react defensively when we feel we're being made to be a villain for just being who we are and doing what most people around you said was ok to do. Not to mention that person might be carrying a lot of personal baggage which will make it even harder for them to accept what they're telling you.

It's not necessarily ALWAYS going to be that complicated - some people will have a much easier time understanding the concept, might be more well-adjusted personally, be more empathetic than usual - which I think was the case here actually, since when somebody bothered to sit her down and actually explain what the problem was with some personal experiences for context, the person actually understood it and promised to stop doing it.

If there's one thing you should never do to someone in a situation like this, it's bully them and bombard them with harassment and not offering them any actual explanation for what's going on.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12985: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:12:42 AM

Yup. And as other people have pointed out, these already-difficult situations only get more so when you add in serious cultural and language barriers. Social justice issues are usually complicated and nasty enough already even when the discussion is happening purely between people who share a culture and tongue.

Also, technically a few hours late, but in honor of Martin Luther King: When Silence Is Betrayal: On Asian American Debt To The Radical King.

The Black radical tradition has been at the vanguard of anti-war movements against U.S. imperialism in Asia - catalyzing Asian American activism in the process. King's anti-militarism is a call to see the Asian diaspora's deep stakes in the struggle against police violence and mass incarceration.

It's Martin Luther King Jr. Day and the President-Elect of the United States is slinging drivel at civil rights icon Rep. John Lewis on Twitter; Washington, D.C. is bracing for a 200,000 person anti-Trump Women's March on Washington; and protesters in cities across the country are leading #ReclaimMLK demonstrations to denounce homelessness, police violence, attacks on voting rights, and the sanitization of Dr. King's radical vision of Black liberation.

Amidst all of it, I'm revisiting my copy of The Radical King, wondering what Dr. King's legacy means in this movement moment. As an Asian American, I keep coming back to King's 1967 speech "Beyond Vietnam: A Time To Break Silence," in which a defiant King unburdened himself of his silence on the Vietnam War. "A time comes when silence is betrayal," he declared. "That time has come for us in relation to Vietnam." Denouncing the war's "cruel manipulation of the poor" in diverting economic investment away from the country's poor "like some demonic, destructive suction tube," King lamented the role the United States occupied as "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." He addressed critics who cautioned him that speaking out against the war would be "hurting the cause of your people," remarking: "their questions suggest that they do not know the world in which they live."

In 2014, Scot Nakagawa marked MLK Day with a reflection on what Asian Americans owe to the Civil Rights Movement. He noted the 1965 Voting Rights Act that prohibited language discrimination, which many Asian Americans rely on to vote in their language of choice; the Immigration and Nationality Act that ended the racist quota system restricting Asian immigration; and the end of interracial marriage bans. Reflecting on "Beyond Vietnam," I am struck by the debt we owe to Black liberation thinkers like King who have also been the vanguard of anti-war movements, challenging U.S. imperialism in Asia and catalyzing Asian American movements in the process.

While Black liberation movements inspired Asian Americans to interrogate the circumstances of their own oppressions under white supremacy, Black critiques of the war urged an international perspective that would come to define the Asian American movement. As Yuri Kochiyama recounts in Passing It On: A Memoir:

"I remember [Asian Americans for Action co-founder Kazu Iijima] would often say: 'We must create an Asian American perspective of the Vietnam War. An Asian nation is being bombed, and Asian Americans will be going to Vietnam and fighting against the Vietnamese too...We must know what this war is really about."

What the war was really about, according to Black radicals like Angela Davis, was the "war economy" of the United States - the "military apparatus [putting] down the resistance in the black and brown community, on the campuses, in the working class communities" at the same time it terrorized civilians in villages across Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. The struggle in Vietnam, then, was about everyone: "the struggle of the whole Third World: the struggle against colonialism, neo-colonialism, and imperialism," as Malcolm X put it in a speech delivered to honored Hibakusha guests (Japanese atomic bomb survivors) at Yuri Kochiyama's Harlem apartment in 1964.

If, drawing from Andrea Smith, we see the "three pillars of white supremacy" as slavery/capitalism, genocide/colonialism, and Orientalism/war, then Black anti-war efforts must be understood as anti-Orientalist efforts, too. American history tells us all too clearly that the fate of Asian America is tied to U.S. foreign policy in Asia. W.E.B. DuBois' condemnation of the inhumane bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is thus also a condemnation of the inhumane incarceration of Japanese Americans. Muhammad Ali's declaration "I ain't got nothing against them Vietcong" is a declaration of solidarity with Asians and Asian Americans. As key disruptors of the U.S. war machine in Asia, Black movements have been central in undermining the racist stereotypes that cast both Asians and Asian Americans as enemy others.

In this light, Dr. King's call to break silence is turned back onto us: it is a call for Asian Americans to break our own silence in the face of Black oppression. Davis's linking of the violence sown by the war economy in Vietnam and in Black and brown communities stateside becomes a call for us to connect the militarism that has driven Asian migration to the U.S. to the systems of police violence and mass incarceration that continue to steal Black lives with impunity.

For the past several years, Black Lives Matter chapters have turned MLK Day from an exercise in apolitical excerpting of King's "I Have a Dream" speech into a day of reclamation of the radical Dr. King and his legacy in an America that continues to deny that Black lives matter. As direct beneficiaries of both 1960s civil rights legislation and a Black anti-war critique that helped forge that era's Third World solidarities, Asian Americans can and must be part of the work to #ReclaimMLK. That means reclaiming King's legacy from white conservatives who wield out-of-context quotes to shame Black protestors and urge a "color blind" ignorance towards systemic racism, and from members of our own Asian American communities that trade in canned King soundbites in order to oppose affirmative action or police accountability. When Chinese American protesters wield signs saying "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" to defend a Chinese American police officer charged for the shooting of an unarmed Black man, we cannot be silent. When family members and community leaders cry "not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character" to denounce affirmative action, we cannot be silent.

Reclaiming MLK means channeling King's internationalist lens to our own moment: to stand against the U.S. war economy whether it is militarizing the South China Sea or suppressing Black protest in Ferguson or Charlotte. It means being vocal in the face of our oppressions just as it means refusing to be silent in our privileges, and grounding our movements in the experiences of Black, indigenous, undocumented, disabled, Muslim, gender non-conforming, and poor communities most impacted by state violence. It means remembering that the seeds of the Asian American movement were sown in the Black liberation movement, in the fight to free political prisoners, and the dream of a Third World: one defined by the multitudinous experiences of peoples of color and yet joined by a singular vision.

Unlike those that urged Dr. King to keep quiet about the Vietnam War for fear it would detract from his cause, we cannot afford to not "know the world in which we live." It is a world in which, out of political urgency and moral clarity, our causes - to halt deportations, stop the Muslim registry, end police violence, preserve access to birth control, and so much more - must be joined. In these times, to be silent is nothing short of betrayal.

Oh, and also, Rob Schneider is on Twitter telling John Lewis what MLK would have wanted, explaining to him how civil rights movements work, and telling him to stop being such an Angry Black Man.

There is no middle finger big enough.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#12986: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:52:42 AM

[up] Wait, "Deuce Bigalow" is whitesplaining to John Lewis on Twitter? LMFAO

Disgusted, but not surprised
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#12987: Jan 17th 2017 at 6:39:07 AM

Aw yes, the actor who does blackface and yellowface explaining what MLK would have wanted.

Goddamn did the pricks come out to play since Trump's win.

edited 17th Jan '17 6:40:11 AM by NoName999

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#12988: Jan 17th 2017 at 6:52:01 AM

So, some pieces of shit decided to mark MLK day in British Columbia by spreading KKK flyers.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/vancouver/2017/01/16/kkk-literature-distributed-in-abbotsford-ahead-of-mlk-day.html?platform=hootsuite

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#12989: Jan 17th 2017 at 9:57:58 AM

[up][up] I've seen very few Rob Schneider films. Where did he do this? And was there ever as large a complaint about Tropic Thunder and Robert Downey Jr being in blackface for so much of the movie?

So apparently, it's scientifically proven that diversity, mainly of race but also of gender, promotes more success and greater attention to work. Some excerpts:

Research on large, innovative organizations has shown repeatedly that this is the case. For example, business professors Cristian Deszö of the University of Maryland and David Ross of Columbia University studied the effect of gender diversity on the top firms in Standard & Poor's Composite 1500 list, a group designed to reflect the overall U.S. equity market. First, they examined the size and gender composition of firms' top management teams from 1992 through 2006. Then they looked at the financial performance of the firms. In their words, they found that, on average, “female representation in top management leads to an increase of $42 million in firm value.” They also measured the firms' “innovation intensity” through the ratio of research and development expenses to assets. They found that companies that prioritized innovation saw greater financial gains when women were part of the top leadership ranks.

Racial diversity can deliver the same kinds of benefits. In a study conducted in 2003, Orlando Richard, a professor of management at the University of Texas at Dallas, and his colleagues surveyed executives at 177 national banks in the U.S., then put together a database comparing financial performance, racial diversity and the emphasis the bank presidents put on innovation. For innovation-focused banks, increases in racial diversity were clearly related to enhanced financial performance.

...

In 2006 Margaret Neale of Stanford University, Gregory Northcraft of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and I set out to examine the impact of racial diversity on small decision-making groups in an experiment where sharing information was a requirement for success. Our subjects were undergraduate students taking business courses at the University of Illinois. We put together three-person groups—some consisting of all white members, others with two whites and one nonwhite member—and had them perform a murder mystery exercise. We made sure that all group members shared a common set of information, but we also gave each member important clues that only he or she knew. To find out who committed the murder, the group members would have to share all the information they collectively possessed during discussion. The groups with racial diversity significantly outperformed the groups with no racial diversity. Being with similar others leads us to think we all hold the same information and share the same perspective. This perspective, which stopped the all-white groups from effectively processing the information, is what hinders creativity and innovation.

Other researchers have found similar results. In 2004 Anthony Lising Antonio, a professor at the Stanford Graduate School of Education, collaborated with five colleagues from the University of California, Los Angeles, and other institutions to examine the influence of racial and opinion composition in small group discussions. More than 350 students from three universities participated in the study. Group members were asked to discuss a prevailing social issue (either child labor practices or the death penalty) for 15 minutes. The researchers wrote dissenting opinions and had both black and white members deliver them to their groups. When a black person presented a dissenting perspective to a group of whites, the perspective was perceived as more novel and led to broader thinking and consideration of alternatives than when a white person introduced that same dissenting perspective. The lesson: when we hear dissent from someone who is different from us, it provokes more thought than when it comes from someone who looks like us.

This effect is not limited to race. For example, last year professors of management Denise Lewin Loyd of the University of Illinois, Cynthia Wang of Oklahoma State University, Robert B. Lount, Jr., of Ohio State University and I asked 186 people whether they identified as a Democrat or a Republican, then had them read a murder mystery and decide who they thought committed the crime. Next, we asked the subjects to prepare for a meeting with another group member by writing an essay communicating their perspective. More important, in all cases, we told the participants that their partner disagreed with their opinion but that they would need to come to an agreement with the other person. Everyone was told to prepare to convince their meeting partner to come around to their side; half of the subjects, however, were told to prepare to make their case to a member of the opposing political party, and half were told to make their case to a member of their own party.

The result: Democrats who were told that a fellow Democrat disagreed with them prepared less well for the discussion than Democrats who were told that a Republican disagreed with them. Republicans showed the same pattern. When disagreement comes from a socially different person, we are prompted to work harder. Diversity jolts us into cognitive action in ways that homogeneity simply does not.

Anyone else now extra worried about the Ku Klux Klandidate?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#12990: Jan 17th 2017 at 10:52:31 AM

[up] Mostly shitty slapstick/toilet humor type comedies; in a lot of Adam Sandler films he has small parts as racial caricatures. Schneider has gone off the deep end into Alex Jones type conspiracy stuff in recent years and is a full-on Trumpling.

edited 17th Jan '17 10:55:06 AM by carbon-mantis

Aquaconda Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12992: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:00:40 PM

Like I said. No middle finger big enough.

As much as people may dislike the term - this is a case of whitesplaining so outrageous it's practically self-parody.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#12993: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:27:01 PM

Honestly don't get why people still pay attention to him, anymore than they pretend to care about watching Adam Sandler movies.

Aquaconda Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#12994: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:38:42 PM

[up][up]Same.

I remember him from Polar Shit.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't there before Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#12995: Jan 17th 2017 at 5:03:49 PM

I mean, minstrel shows were a thing. They're pretty much half the reason that it's considered racist when Hollywood does it today.

I get that minstrel shows were a thing. But I am not one to lump a cross racial costume to a minstrel show. Like, the fact that tanning your skin for cosplay is inmediately categorized as brownface or blackface is something I personally find limiting. The minstrel show and the early cinema blackface presented exaggerations and stereotypes of black people. Things that no modern cosplay looks like. What if the character's cosplay is a ganguro? should we tell the cosplayer not to do it?

Superdark33 The dark Mage of the playground from Playgrounds and Adventures Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The dark Mage of the playground
#12996: Jan 18th 2017 at 6:24:09 AM

People cosplay as Wonder Woman, Fat!Wonder Woman and Man!Wonder Woman, so why not Black!WW or Asian!WW?

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#12997: Jan 18th 2017 at 7:34:26 AM

[up][up]These things do not exist in a vacuum. If you alter your skin tone as part of a costume, it's going to remind people of blackface. This is going to upset some people. The historical practice of blackface has left costumes that involve skin tone changes with Unfortunate Implications, whether the intent is the same or not, and whether the modern usage is anything like the historical practice or not.

That's a fact. It's just how it is. Given that, your choices are 1) do it anyway, knowing that you're going to be pissing a lot of people off, or 2) don't do it. Simple as that.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12998: Jan 18th 2017 at 7:37:15 AM

[up][up] If you're actually Black or Asian and want to cosplay as Wonder Woman, then by all means, more power to you. (I just saw some pictures of an Asian woman cosplaying as Han Solo that were pretty badass.)

If you're not, then...don't wear blackface or yellowface. I don't feel that's an unreasonable request.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#12999: Jan 18th 2017 at 8:00:51 AM

That's a fact. It's just how it is.

And it seams the only response to association fallacies, tradition and American cultural imperialism is defeatism and perpetuation of the current situation. But at least you get to be condescending.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't there before Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#13000: Jan 18th 2017 at 8:37:21 AM

1) do it anyway, knowing that you're going to be pissing a lot of people off, or 2) don't do it. Simple as that.

Why should your US cultural hang ups affect my enjoyment of something? What about cultural practices of costumes that include such effects? This sounds like US cultural imperialism to me.


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